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Baghdadee بغدادي > Women المرأه > Women's Rights حقوق المرأه
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salim
Interesting article about what women is facing the current Iraq

http://www.msnbc.com/news/989180.asp?cp1=1
Need your feedback
Guest
Have a look to this.. Two Iraqi women writting an interesting article about current women situation in Iraq

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2003Nov28.html
Guest
Are Iraqi women holding meetings to dicuss what laws they would want implented to protect women's rights?
cicio
mobileone
you know the thing that concerns me the most, is how the fundamental religious groups of Iraq are going to influence the writing of the constitution, in reguard to womens rights.

I mean hopefully barring the emergence of a taliban style of law, lets consider the influence of religion over the state in Iran, Syria, Jordan, or Saudi Arabia.

how have womens rights been formed in those places, and to what degree are they at parity with mens rights?

and what do most Iraqis, feel about the equality of women.
Guest

موضوع
موضوع مثير حول ما يجابه المراه في عراق اليوم
نطلب التعقيب

http://www.msnbc.com/news/989180.asp?cp1=1

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تعلثق سالم
انضر الى هذا المقال الذي كتبته امرأتان عراقيتان في الواشنطن بوست حول وضع المرأه في العراق

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2003Nov28.html

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تعليق سيسو
هل تناقش المرأه العراقيه من خلال لقائات موضوع القوانين الوجبه لحمايه حقوق المرأه
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تعليق ملبيون

هل تعرف مايقلقني اكثر, انه كبف ستؤثر المجموعات الدينيه الاصوليه على كتابه الدستور فيما يتعلق بالمرأه؟
اقصد, متخوفا من ضهور قانون شبيه بالطالبان, التاثير على بلاد مثل سوريا زالسعوديه وايران والاردن.

كيف هي حقوق المرأه في هذه البلاد؟ والى اي حد متناسبه مع حقوق الرجل؟
وماهي مشاعر العراقيين تجاه حقوق المرأه.
.
mobileone
found this, this morning...
Iraq's women TV presenters oblivious to fatwas

from reading at juan cole

juan cole
Guest
mobileone

I would be careful with such reports..
To me as Iraqi , I can say that the writer is mixing too many issues to get the reader have the impression that the Shia clergy is against the women working at such station. Indeed it is the other way..
Some of the Najaf aclergy are calling for more modesty in the station programs during Ramadan .And that is their opinion in free new Iraq but not to threaten the women's life working there.. The Najaf a clergies are scholar figures and not a group of thugs.
The women problems came from Baathist and Wahabees who claim working in the station is a legitimate reason to kill them.


At the end, as Mrs. Rassam mentioned, it is the station that for the first time in Iraq history allowing the Shia pray call just beside the Sunni pray call "athan".. Some thing that make the Wahabees so mad!
baghda
Translating Guest's:
ترجمه تعليق الضيف
مبيلون
يجب توخي الحذر عند قرائه مقال من هذا النوع. كعراقي, استطيع ان اقول ان الكاتب يخلط عده امر ليدفع القارئ نحو الاعتقاد ان ان رجال الدين الشيعه ضد اؤلئك النساء العاملات في المحطه التلفزيونيه العراقيه. والحقيقه هي العكس.
صحيح ان بعض رجال الدين في النجف كانوا قد دعوا الى حشمه اكثر بمناسبه شهر رمضان ولكن ذلك ليس موجها لتلكم الموضفات. فهؤلاء الرجال هم رجال علم وليسوا مجموعه من الغوغاء.

مشكله هؤلاء الموضفات هو التهديد الذي يوجهه البعثيون والوهابيون يتحليل قلتهم بسبب عملهم في المحطه.
في النهايه فان هذه المحطه كانت اول من بث الاذان الشيعي في تاريخ العراق, كما قالت مديره المحطه السيده شميم رسام
!
mg
Quotation from link:
"If you do not change your programs and submit to our will, we shall mobilize the Iraqi street against you. We shall mobilize the Iraqi street to defend Islam," warned Sadreddin al-Qabanji in remarks broadcast by Al-Jazeera satellite channel last week.

As a western male, I find this statement shocking. I have attempted to understand through other readings the reasons for the hajib. Please correct me if I am wrong, but every explanation for covering women is to 'protect' their modesty from prying male eyes. Others say it is to remove temptation for men to look at women.

Wouldn't it be better if men simply learned to respect women? Women walk freely without fear of being staired at or attacked all over the world. Men all over the world seem to be able to 'resist' this temptation. Why not men in the ME?

I know this sounds very simple, but womens inequality really has no place in the 21st century.
salim
First let me just comment on your quote.. It is absolutely not related to Hijab.. The quotee is a minor religious figure "Huga", that was referring in one of the Friday prayers to the TV programs during ramada. There is a new policy in The Arab TV stations, seems Iraqi be included, to use the religious month of Ramadan to broadcast all those not modest shows. That is as a way to bring attention of more people! Having in mind that Arab stations do not have rating as the case with American ones

As for the Hijab, your points are very interesting and I would encourage you to open a topic for your points..
I have a lot to say but not under this topic, as this might emphasis the original newspaper mischivous article trying to do.. No relation between what that cleric had said and the women hijab in that station.

قبل كل شئ اريد ان اوضح نقطه على المقطع الذي اشرت اليه.
المقطع منقول عن شخصيه دينيه غير رئيسيه "حجه اسلام" و لاعلاقه له البته بموضوع الحجاب, انه اشاره الى تلك البرامج الغير محتشمه التي اعتادت القنوات العربيه , ومن ضمنها العراقيه, ان تبثها بتركيز ايام شهر رمضان كوسيله لجلب انتباه المشاهدين. علما ان القنوات العربيه لا تتبع نظام تحديد الخلاعه المتبع في امريكا.

اما بالنسبه للنقاط التي اثرتها حول الحجاب , فهي جيده واتمنى ان تفرد لها عمودا حيث لدي الكثير مما يمكن ان اعلق عليه ولكن ليس تحت هذا العمود لانه سوف يفسر على انه تاييد لاكاذيب التي حاول تقرير الصحيفه الاصلي ان يوهم قرائه بها.. ليس هناك علاقه بين اتقادات رجال الدين ومساله الحجاب للموضفات في المحطه العراقيه
mg
Thanks Salim, I'll repost
vala
Translating the article below
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2003Nov28.html


فتحت طبيبة عراقية بابها لعملاء حزب البعث السري لتجد نفسها معتقلة وفي طريقها إلى السجن لعشر سنوات , وهي في رعب من إنها لن ترى أطفالها مرة أخرى أبدا".وكل جريمتها إنها أسعفت جراح شخص يحتضر ملقى في شارع بغداد .ثم سمعت لاحقا" انه ترك ليموت بعد استجوابه . وبسبب مساعدته وباتباعها لقسم ابقراط* في مهنتها فقد تخطت الحدود.وروايتها هي واحدة من مئات أو آلاف القصص الغير مروية للنساء العراقيات.

لأكثر من 35 عام ِ عانى العراق من القتل ِالاغتصاب ِ التعذيب والاختفاء المفاجئ
تحت نظام حزب البعث. فقدنﱠ النساء أزواجهن ,أبنائهن وإخوانهن بسبب الحرب وتركوا ليتحملنﱠ وحدهن أعباء عوائلهن ومسؤوليات المجتمع في دولة معزولة عن العالم.

النساء العراقيات لهن باع طويل في التعليم العالي, المهن الناجحة والتأثير في القطاعات الخاصة والعامة. والعديدات منا مهندسات ِ طبيبات , محاميات و متعلمات ذوات خبرة جيدة. ونحن لانزال نمتلك هذه القابليات المهنية ولكن صوتنا لازال لا يسمع بل بالعكس انهم يتجاهلونه بانتظام.
كانت عندنا العديد من الآمال العظيمة , وتحققت هذه مع التقدير العميق عندما خلصت قوات الائتلاف العراق من الدكتاتور المستبد .ونحن نتفهم المعاناة التي عانت منها العوائل العراقية عندما استشهد أولادهم وبناتهم في التدخل العسكري . وقد لاحظنا إن هذا الحصار والتضحية هو من اجل أن تحررنا أمريكا لنبني عراق جديد وديمقراطي .ولكن الديمقراطية سوف تفشل إذا لم تشارك المرأة.
وكانت خيبة أمل كبيرة عندما قامت سلطة الائتلاف المؤقتة بإعلان مجلس الحكم العراقي والذي عينﱠ ثلاث نساء فقط.وبعد مقتل إحداهن, وهي عقيلة هاشمي, بقيت اثنتان فقط.والذي زاد من إحباطنا إعلان المجلس تشكيل لجنة لتنفيذ دستوره الجديد.مرة أخرى الرجال فقط. ولغاية الآن تم حجز منصب لخمس نواب وزراء للنساء فقط والفضل يعود إلى هاشمي الذي كان له دور مشهود في حقوق المرأة.
وعلى الرغم من خيبات الأمل والعقبات للانضمام فقد نضمنﱠ النساء العراقيات أنفسهن. وذلك بتأثيرهن على سلطة الائتلاف الموقتة ومجلس الحكم .فقمن ﱠ بتنظيم المطالب وخرجنﱠ في التظاهرات وبدأن بتدريب النساء في الأمور المدنية والسياسة ونشر السلام. وافتتحن المجموعات النسائية الملاجئ ,وعلمنﱠ محو الأمية ونظمنﱠ برامج الحصانة .
وفي نهاية الشهر السابق فقط قام المجلس العالي للنساء بوضع سياسة جديدة لزيادة مشاركة النساء على كل مستويات الحكومة ومراقبة التطور في جدول أعمال المرأة العراقية. والأكثر أهمية من ذلك إن المجلس العالي سوف يرفع أصوات النساء العراقيات والتي بقيت صامتة لمدة طويلة.
ومن دون دور المرأة المؤثر في حفظ الأمن وإدارة العراق والمتضمن كتابة الدستور الجديد فان نجاح تأثير الولايات المتحدة هو على المحك.
وأدناه ما نحتاجه من حكومة الولايات المتحدة وشعبها:-
حوار مع المرأة حول دورها في حماية المستقبل الديمقراطي في العراق.
رؤوس الأموال لتمكيننا من تنظيم وكسب حقوقنا الديمقراطية, وتدريب القائدات الجديدات والارتباط مع المجاميع الغير حكومية العالمية.
وضع خارطة طريق معدﱠله لتنظيم الانتخابات وتشكيل الدستور لتضمين الأصوات المنسية لكل النساء العراقيات.
وضع خطوط عمل واقعية للعراق الديمقراطي والذي هو غير مرتبط مع جدول الأعمال الأجنبية مثل انتخابات الولايات المتحدة القادمة.
الوثوق في إرادة الشعب العراقي وإمكانيته لبناء بلدهم.

نحن نطالب الشعب الأمريكي بالتفهم والدعم المستمر في رحلتنا إلى الإصلاح الديمقراطي ونحن مدينون لهم لدعمهم في تحريرنا من الديكتاتورية, ونود أن نتعلم من الكفاح الأمريكي للحصول على الاستقلالية حتى نستطيع أن نكتب دستور فريد لقطرنا.


هند مكية هي مغتربة , ولدت وتعلمت في العراق ورجعت إلى أهلها في شهر تموز .سوسن بارك هي مهندسة من محافظة الحلة فقدت أعضاء من أسرتها في المجزرة هناك. والاثنتين هما عضوان في الارتباط العالمي النسائي لنشر السلام.

* يمين يقسمه الأطباء في حفلة التخرج
Guest
Where are Iraqi women posting about their thoughts and feelings about womens rights and on the future of Iraq? How do Iraqi men feel about women having a stronger voice in politics?
cicio
adel
As Iraqi, I don't feel any concern having Iraqi women louder voice in politics.
American hopeful
I found this article to be both enlightening and depressing.
Women under siege.
Guest_salim
American hope
You might need to read Um-Zehraa article under Insider Iraqis..
From my personal contact s , I can say with confidence that this report is not balanced or was refering to those accidents happened after the fall of Baghdad. Since Iraqi police took over last Augest, Tens of Thousands of Iraqi women and girls are going every morning to schools , offices and market places.. Their were asbsolutely no concerns of walking a lone during the day light..I personally checked this with my relatives in Baghdad..
As for out side baghdad there was no any such thing that the writer is reporting..

ربما يكون من المفيد قرائه مقال ام زهراء تحت عمود من داخل العراق
اعتمادا على اتصالاتي الشخصيه , استطيع ان اؤكد ان هذا التقرير ليس متوازنا او انه يشير لتك الحوادث التي حصلت بعد سقوط بغداد. منذ استعاده الشرطه العراقيه السيطره على الشارع في اب الماضي , هناك عشرات الالاف من النساء والبنات يخرجن كل يوم للمدارس والمكاتب والاسواق ..
ليس هناك اي تخوف من التجوال في الشوارع اثناء النهار.. انا شخصيا تاكدت من ذلك.
اما بالنسبه لخارج بغداد فان الوضع لم يكن ابدا كما يصف الكاتب.
Achillea
American Hope,

Also, 'The Nation' is a very left-leaning publication. Much of the left opposed the liberation of Iraq, and now battens upon any negative stories it can. I've learned only a little about the Carr Foundation, which sponsored the article. It seems to be a well-meaning, but somewhat leftist, organization.
American hopeful
Thank you for your replies. You have given me more hope. It is helpful to know what slant publishers put on their articles.
I will read the recommended articles.
mobileone
Civil status courts must apply Islamic Sharia, IGC says



Baghdad, Iraq Press, January 3, 2004 – The Interim Governing Council has decided that Iraqi civil status courts should resort to the Islamic Sharia or code in their rulings.



The secular regime of Saddam Hussein had passed laws that all matters related to marriage, divorce, birth, inheritance, etc. were required to be registered at government-run civil status courts.



The regime had also passed civil status legislation which in many areas did not conform to the strict teaching of Islam.



For example couples were under obligation to obtain medical examination in the light of the instructions from the court clerk.



They also personally appeared in front of a judge and two witnesses.



The IGC’s decision declares all civil status regulations issued by the ousted leader Saddam Hussein as null and void.



Iraqis have the right now to follow the applications of their disparate religious denominations and sects rather than the unified civil status regulations prevalent under Saddam Hussein.



The decision is apparently a blow to US efforts to set up a secular society and democracy in the country as an example for other Middle East states to follow.



In the meantime it is a signal of the considerable influence Islamic factions wield in the country particularly the Muslim Shiite groups.



Muslims, who make up 98 percent of the society, have the right now to follow centuries-old civil status traditions and codes which the former regime undermined because it saw as backward and uncivilized.



Under the former regime civil status courts were the only authority capable of issuing official marriage, divorce or birth certificates.



Many Iraqis still resorted to their clerics in such matters but papers issued by the clergy did not have the power of law.

Translated by Mutergem:
ترجمه مترجم:
مجلس الحكم يقرر ان تتبع المحاكم الاحوال الشخصيه للشريعه
قرر مجلس الحكم الانتقالي ان تتبع محاكم الاحوال الشخصيه قواعد الشريعه الاسلاميه في احكامها. وقد كان نضام صدام قد اصدر قرارات تجعل كافه امور الزواج والطلاق وغيرها من اختصاص الحكومه.كما اصدر احكاما تخالف في بعصها احكام الشريعه. على سبيل المثال يجب على الزوجين ان تجتازا الفحص الطبي امام الحاكم. وكذلك حضورهم الشخصي مع شهود امامه.
مجلس الحكم اعلن ان كافه قوانين الاحوال الشخصيه تعتبر لاغيه.للعراقيين الان الحق باتباع احكام مذاهبهم بدلا من النضام الموحد الذي اقره صدام.القرار يمثل ضربه لجهود الامريكان في انشاء مجتمع حر وعلماني يكون مثالا لبقيه شعوب المنطقه. من ناحيه اخرى يمثل اشاره لتاثير الجماعات الاسلاميه في البلد وخصوصا الشيعيه.
المسلمون الذين يشكلون ثمانيه وتسعون بالمائه من الشعب , بامكانهم الان اتباع قوانينهم القديمه التي اتبعوها عبر قرون والتي وصفها صدام بالرجعيه وغير المتحضره. تحت المنضام السابق للمحاكم الحكوميه وحدها الحق في عقود الاحوال الشخصيه.
الكثير من العراقيين لازالوا يلجؤن الى رجال الدين في عقود زواجهم ولكن ذلك لايحمل صفه قانونيه.
salim
QUOTE
Iraqis have the right now to follow the applications of their disparate religious denominations and sects rather than the unified civil status regulations prevalent under Saddam Hussein.


That is not 100% right.. What Saddam did , was to have the governments judges replacing the clerics in doing Meraige contracts. Exactly same way and procedures that clerics would do. You need to know that Muslim marraige procedures do n't require clerics as in some other religions do. What Saddm did was to prohibt clerics from doing the marriages before being registered in Government. That was another way of controlling people lifes. People who are opposing the regim could not go to courts and get stuck as families don't like risking the future of un registered marriage with no any rights.

QUOTE
The decision is apparently a blow to US efforts to set up a secular society and democracy in the country as an example for other Middle East states to follow.


I don't think that there is any relation to secular society.. In America Muslim use to have their marriages before registering at government offices.

QUOTE
In the meantime it is a signal of the considerable influence Islamic factions wield in the country particularly the Muslim Shiite groups
.
That would apply to both Sunni and Shia , there is no difference here!
QUOTE
Muslims, who make up 98 percent of the society, have the right now to follow centuries-old civil status traditions and codes which the former regime undermined because it saw as backward and uncivilized.

That vis not the case .. as stated above.. There were some inheritance differences, where moslims divide it as two to one between men/women.. But this was the case even under Saddams regulations.. People use to write their will to be diffrent if the want to..


Translated by mutergem:
ترجمه مترجم


QUOTE
للعراقيون الحق الان ان يتبعوا مذاهبهم بدلا من النضام الموحد للاحوال الشخصيه



ليس هذا صحيحا مئه بالمائه.. مافعله صدام هو اسبدال قضاه الحكومه محل رجال الدين في ابرام العقود. ولكن تماما بنفس الطريقه والشروط السابقه.يجب معرفه ان الزواج الاسلامي لايتطلب ضروره وجود رجل دين كما هو الحال مع اديان اخرى. ما فعله صدام هو منع رجال الدين من ابرام العقود الزوجيه قبل ان تسبقها عقود رسميه. لقد كانت تلك طريقه اخرى للسيطره على حياه الناس. المعارضون كان يستحيل الذهاب عليهم للمحاكم وبالتالي فقد حشروا . العوائل لاتجازف بتزوج بناتها بدون حقوق رسميه.


QUOTE
القرار يبدو انه ضربه للجهود الامريكيه


لااعتقد ان هناك اي علاقه بين الاثنين. في امريكا المسلمين اعتادوا ان يعقدوا قبل تسجيل ذلك لدى الجهات الرسميه
.

QUOTE
انها اشاره لقوه نفوذ التيارات الاسلاميه وخصوصا الشيعيه
.
انها تهم كلا من الشيعه والسنه لافرق

QUOTE
المسلمين الذين يشكلون ثماتيه وتسعون بالمائه سيمكنهم الان تنفيذ زواجهم من خلال تقاليد قديمه وغير منحضره كما يقول النضام السابق
ويستطيع الفرد كتابه وصيه للتعويض

.
salim
Agood article about the subject.. In arabic though
مقال لطيف حول موضوع قرار مجلس الحكم بالغاء قانون الاحوال الشخصيه..

http://www.elaph.com.:9090/elaph/arabic/fr...000177491320300
mobileone
salim juan cole brought the subject up today and mentioned an article in az-Zaman http://www.azzaman.com/ what sense do you mae of this



The Baghdad/London daily az-Zaman reports that there were widespread demonstrations on Tuesday by women against the order decreeing abolition of Iraq's uniform civil codes in favor of religious law, which they say "repeals women's rights" in Iraq. This story appears to have been completely missed so far by the Western news media, which is a great shame. Women are important, too, guys.

Women activists representing 80 women's organizations (including the female Interim Minister of Public Works!) gathered at Firdaws Square in downtown Baghdad to protest the IGC decree, issued three days ago. Minister of Public Works Nasreen Barwari complained to az-Zaman about the lack of "transparency" and of "democratic consultation" in the promulgation of the decree by the IGC. Protesters carried placards with phrases like "No to discrimination, No to differentiating women and men in our New Iraq." and "We reject Decree 137, which sanctifies religious communalism." Activist Zakiyah Khalifah complained that the law would weaken Iraqi families.

US observers, including US Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, have continually worried in public about Iraq becoming a theocracy, and have rejected that option. But the American-appointed Interim Governing Council has suddenly taken Iraq in a theocratic direction that has important implications for women's rights. As reported here earlier, the IGC took a decision recently to abolish Iraq's civil personal status law, which was uniform for all Iraqis under the Baath. In its place, the IGC called for religious law to govern personal status, to be administered by the clerics of each of Iraq's major religious communities for members of their religion. Thus, Shiites would be under Shiite law and Chaldeans under Catholic canon law for these purposes.

The IGC has ceded to the religious codes jurisdiction over marriage, engagement, suitability to marry, the marriage contract, proof of marriage, dowry, financial support, divorce, the 3-month "severance payments" owed to divorced wives in lieu of alimony, inheritance, and all other personal status matters.

For the vast majority of women who are Muslim, the implementation of `iddah or the obligation of a man to support a woman for 3 months after he divorces her (a term long enough to see whether she is pregnant with his child) has the effect of abolishing the divorced woman's right to alimony. This abrogation of alimony was effected for Muslims in India in the mid-1980s with the Shah Banou case, as the Congress Party's sop to Indian Muslim fundamentalists. The particular form of Islamic law that the IGC seems to envisage operating would also give men the right of unilateral divorce over their wives, gives men the right to take second, third and fourth wives, and gives girls half as much inheritance from the father's estate as boys.

Since the Interim Governing Council was appointed directly by the United States, it is in effect an organ of the Occupation Authority. As such, it is a contravention of the 1907 Hague Regulations for it to change civil law in an occupied territory. The US appointed a number of clerics and leaders of religious parties to the IGC, almost ensuring that this sort of thing would happen.

The US is now in the position of imposing on the Iraqi public, including the 50% who are women, a theocratic code of personal status. The question is whether this step is just the first in the road to an Iraqi theocracy.

posted by Juan Cole at 1/14/2004 08:39:21 AM
salim
Mobileone,
You might be refering to
http://www.azzaman.com/azzaman/http/displa...1/01-14/998.htm

I need some time to come back with more detailed information about it..
salim
While still looking into it.. Let me comment on the following


QUOTE
he IGC has ceded to the religious codes jurisdiction over marriage, engagement, suitability to marry, the marriage contract, proof of marriage, dowry, financial support, divorce, the3 -month "severance payments" owed to divorced The IGC has ceded to the religious codes jurisdiction over marriage, engagement, suitability to marry, the marriage contract, proof of marriage, dowry, financial support, divorce, the3 -month "severance payments" owed to divorced wives in lieu of alimony, inheritance, and all other personal status matte


Marriage: There is no diffrence between civil and Islamic code.. Both have same procedures and requirements
engagements: Same
Suitability of marraiage.. : Same.. Sadam's duaghter get married at 16 years old under the Iraqi civil court
Marriage contract: No difference
proof of merriage: Don't know whatdoes this mean but looks to me both procedures are same
dowry: Still investigating
financial support:as above:
divorce: as above
3 month..: Still invetigating
salim
I had a long talks with different people in Baghdad.. They never heard about such new regulation or about demonstartions.
Also no coverage in the anti-GC arab media!
Don't know from where Alzaman got it..No need to high light that the Alzaanman editor is a former Sadamies propagist , who fled the country after the Kuwait war seeking for better life. He never declare him self as anti Saddamies but the regime considered his fled as a negative sign.
Alzaman used ,since the fall of Saddam, to propaganda against the new Iraq free system and especially the GC..


Here below what I got talking with a sunni lawer in Baghdad

1- The civil law was established by President Kasim in 1959, ten years before Saddam Baath party.
2- It was mainly matching the Shia moderate laws especially in divorce and inheritance of female daughters.
3- If cancelled , then the Sunni women must be the most one impacted, as the Shia laws are almost same as the current civil one.
mobileone
salim, you're probably right but the story is getting some traction, yahoo carried the story with a picture.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...aw_040113202530

It was a small demonstration, but it was led by Nasreen Mustafa Sideek Barwari...

http://www.krg.org/about/ministries/reconstruction/index.asp

who is now the Iraqi minister of public works.

Juan Cole posts today that there were more protests

http://www.juancole.com/2004_01_01_juancol...415331161942645

and more articles in Alzaman, and one in the Financial Times.


riverbend

http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/2004_01_...418574968764277

commentes about what affect the changes of the law may be
salim
mobileone,
The problem with this alleged law is that there is no one knows about its details..
Before having official copy of what such a law is, if any, I think any discussion is useless.
I agree that Azzaman with it's sunni backgroud have a lot of concerns about the possibility of such a law. The issue is more political. As I said, according to the Sunni shria there are a lot of debatable issues regerding the women, inheritance, divorce, marriage etc.. I know a lot of friends declare them self as Shie just make their kids rights be according to the Shia one.
As for riverbend, I don't buy most of the article points.. These things that had been listed are minor or were possible under both current cvil or islamic laws.
For example, about the mentioned "Mutta mariage" , there are a lot of moslims in the west and they can do it as far as the law don't consider sexual friendship as a sin, however, howmany moslims declare them selfs as such? almost non..
This a personal choice. I am not defending these types of temporary Islamic marriages like Mutta or Misiiar , but wanted to say that mixing things are not always good way. Let me ask him a question: How would the civil law deal in a free society with a couple that decide to live with each other under a friedship or one of these temporary marriages? are we going to kill them?

The islamic marriage is a simple contract between two persons , based on legal and full offer and acceptance bases with some condition like Mahar "any ammount that hasbend obligid to pay to wife on two stages, before and after marriage" and declaration with witnesses. Something make it the nearest to the civil one. However , it is true that letting the control of rights of both men and women and kids so floating to the interpretation of some one, is a very bad choice. But this can be regulated by the civil law. I mean the rights of all of them from being abused under any other law, islamic or other. For example in the west , a couple can live together without official registered marriage, but the law would keep all the rights of them as far as they can prove the fact they had share living.. The civil law can protect the right of women or men in any forced marriage as an illegal action and according to islamic law which require the free choice of both of them.

Again as I mentioned, it is too early to discuss. I don't feel that there is any chance that a law that could harm women right is possible in the new Iraq. First becuase of the type of GC members and their need for support in the coming ellection, and second because of the temporary status of the Gc.
There is some thing but what is it? Need some one to tell me..
baghda
Translated by Vala:
The G council makes the decision and the Iraqi women ask support from Bremer.
A women demonstration against the cancel of the personal status law.


http://www.elaph.com.:9090/elaph/arabic/fr...000177491320300

Tuesday 13 of Jan. 2004, 13:26

“elaph from London”: Baghdad witnessed a huge women demonstration followed by a strike in the middle of the capital , protesting against a decision was taken by the GC before two days ago to cancel the personal status law valid in Iraq since 40 years . But the president of the alliance authority, Poll Premier, refused to admit it. The committee of judgement took a decision numbered 137 submitted by the Islamic parties in the council which delete the decision which give the Iraqi woman many rights in the issues of marriage, divorce, inheritance and children nursery. And substitute a law gives the authorities for religious men and the heads of association (I’shaeir) and substitute their will in the place of courts which judge in these women issues .This matter was considered by the women organizations and political activities as returning backwards.

The previous Iraqi leader Abed Al -karim Kasim had issued the law in the beginning of sixty and this was considered progressive fair step to the Iraqi woman, which gives her many rights. The council will held a meeting tomorrow with Premier to solve the contradiction regarding those decision which he objected and used “vito“ against issuing it officially. While an Iraqi resources mentioned that some Islamic people in the council make use of the absence of some members in an official missions outside Iraq and inside it to present to decision and to get the voices of majority to confirm the decision.
The consoler in the council of the Iraqi woman which was established in the previous October, Alaa Al Talabany, said that an expanded council, which was organized by the council today, followed by a big demonstration and a strike has issued a statement which refused the decision of the council of judgement. This decision invited to the joining of the Iraqi woman in all the council’s committees and in all the decisions which is related to the woman , beside representing her by rate of 40 present in the coming legal committee.
Alaa Al Talabany has told “Iylaf” in a call from Baghdad that a delegation from the higher committee for woman will held a meeting tomorrow with the president of the council of judgement , the doctor Adnnan Al Bashashai, to inform him refusing the Iraqi women for the decision of the council and to request Premier earnestly not to agree on the decision . She insured that the Iraqi woman will not keep silent for this unfair decision and will keep going against it until it cancel it, declaring for her hope that Premier will not left the “vito” which he used before against the decision!.
salim
An article for debate.. From Zeyad healing Iraq blog:

Sharia to replace civil marriage and inheritance laws
I'm so happy about this, now I can marry and divorce in any way I like. Yay! I'm at the moment gathering family members to go to the local cleric so I can divorce my fourth wife which I don't really like anymore, and get myself an 11 year-old virgin. All the other small details will be settled within the family and with the blessings of the Sayid.

Now seriously, this GC decision has created a firestorm and is the most talked about news in Baghdad. There were Iraqi women groups demonstrations lead by Nisrin Barawari, the minister of public works, on Tuesday at Fardus square protesting against this discriminating decision.

So much for secularism. I guess my fears are now warranted especially with thousands of Shi'ites marching yesterday in Basrah shouting "Yes to Sistani" and "Death to America". Who is going to protect and enforce womens rights now? I'm pretty sure our good ole Godfather Sistani is now clapping his hands in glee. There is no way he wasn't involved in this decision.

Riverbend has a much more outraged post on this serious development.

More bad news. A fellow dentist who will be working with me in Basrah dropped by today and informed me that another dentist who used to work at the same clinic we were assigned to was murdered this week in Basrah. He was a Christian. My friend who will be assigned with me is also Christian.

My parents are going crazy, they want me to give up the residency and stay in Baghdad. Unfortunately it isn't that easy. If I were to leave that assignment I would be fired and I would not be allowed ever to work as a licensed dentist in Iraq. I'm really confused. what to do? What to do?
Guest
Read M. Ledeen about this

http://www.nationalreview.com/ledeen/ledeen200401161303.asp

Quoting..

No wonder the Baghdad dentist who operates www.healingiraq.com writes caustically "I'm so happy about this, now I can marry and divorce in any way I like. Yay! I'm at the moment gathering family members to go to the local cleric so I can divorce my fourth wife which I don't really like anymore, and get myself an 11 year-old virgin. All the other small details will be settled within the family and with the blessings of the Sayid."

President Bush should tremble at the thought that all our efforts to bring democracy to the Middle East will, instead, replace one form of tyranny with another. He should have been outraged when our ambassador plenipotentiary in Kabul, Zalmay Khalilzad, twice accepted the definition of Afghanistan as an Islamic republic. He should intervene to stop (Islamic) legal proceedings against two Afghan women now charged with "blasphemy" for questioning the desirability of giving sharia special status in the new national constitution. And he should insist that Americans not fight, and even die, for the creation of yet more theocratic states in the Middle East.

All this is the inevitable result of the doctrines of political correctness, which make it socially unacceptable to state the simple truth that the United States has developed a superior political culture, one of the crucial elements of which is the separation of church and state. When Alexis de Tocqueville recognized this act of genius in the early 1830s, he marveled that it made both politics and religion stronger and more responsive to the needs of their followers, and he urged Europeans to adopt it. Scholar after scholar, including some of the best of the Islamic world, have recognized that an excessive intrusion of certain Islamic precepts into civil society has contributed mightily to the lack of freedom, creativity and even scientific knowledge. The liberation of Iraq and Afghanistan gave hope that the region's long decline might be reversed. Yet our own leaders, on the ground and back in Washington, are permitting one of the main elements in the ruin of the region to reassume its dominant role.
mobileone
Tuesday, January 20, 2004

Still Brooding...
My head has been spinning these last few days with decision No. 173 on changing Family Law to Shari'a. I've been darkly mulling over the endless possibilities. I'm not the only one- everyone I talk to is shaking their head in dismay. How is this happening? How are we caving in to fundamentalism?

Talabani was saying that the decision wasn't taken or passed because it didn't get enough votes by the GC, but all the signs say that the decision was made and might be implemented as soon as they get Bremer's signature. Nisreen Barwari, the only female minister on the cabinet, was out demonstrating with several of the women's rights parties a few days ago against the decision. Christopher Allbritton over at Back to Iraq 3.0 has written something on the subject and so has the Washington Post.

The question is, even if the personal status laws aren't going to be subjected to change now- immediately- what about the future? What does that say about 6 months from now when Bremer's signature isn't necessary?

Two days ago, there was a conference on women's rights in the elegant Nadi Al-Sayd (or Hunting Club) in Baghdad led by the major women's rights groups and they were condemning decision No. 173 saying that it'll be a blow to women's rights in Iraq. The frightening thing was that one of the more secular members of the GC was championing the decision and claiming that it was going to be a 'great advance' in the rights of Iraqi women. He didn't explain how or why, but he condescendingly sat in front of the angry mob of women and gave them a mysterious Mona Lisa smile that, I assume, was supposed to be reassuring.

Seeing some of the GC members give press conferences these days, reminds me of the time I went to watch my cousin's daughter 'graduate' from kindergarten. They had about 20 kids up on this little stage with their teacher, Miss Basma, standing benevolently in their midst. As long as she was on the stage, they all stood correctly; simultaneously reciting a poem they had learned just for the occasion. The moment Miss Basma stepped down, there was a stampede- 20 students rushed for the only microphone on the stage all at once, grappling to see who could reach it first and drown out the other voices with their own.

Now we face a similar situation. Miss Basma- er, I mean Bremer- has been off the stage (in Washington and New York) and there has been a rush to grab the metaphorical microphone. For example, while the decision on family law seems almost definite, Talabani adamantly denies it… other members only reluctantly discuss it.

A couple of weeks ago, when federalism was all the rage with the GC, Talabani made statements on how the decision was almost final: federalism based on ethnicity was just around the corner. The same week, Ibraheim Al-Ja'affari, head of Al-Da'awa Al-Islamiya Party, also made an appearance on either LBC or Al-Arabia, claiming that there was no chance Iraq was going to be split up. Adnan Al-Pachichi then gave a press conference stating that while federalism was an option, it wasn't going to be immediate or 'loose'.

There is now talk of it being some sort of a tradeoff or compromise- federalism for the Kurds on the GC, and Shari'a for the Shi'a Islamic groups… It doesn't matter in the end- the Iraqi people will be the losers.

Meanwhile, there have been huge demonstrations in the south these last few days and in Baghdad, demanding elections. The roads were blocked in Baghdad in the areas around the demonstration and there were helicopters overhead all day. Most of the demonstrators were supporters of Sistani who has made himself a national figure in this mess. He was eerily silent about the occupation in the beginning and now he is probably the most influential challenger of the GC. He fluctuates- one day, he claims that if elections aren't held there'll be a fatwa ordering civil disobedience. On another day, he claims that the decision to hold elections should be made by Kofi Annan. The most significant thing he has said so far is that even if elections are held, people from abroad shouldn't be able to run (i.e. 95% of the GC).

I watched the meeting today between some GC members, Bremer and Kofi Annan on CNN. They didn't seem to come to any conclusion except that *maybe* Kofi would send a delegation to assess the situation in Iraq. Meanwhile, 100,000 Shi'a and Sunnis demonstrated in Baghdad today (although the Shi'a outnumbered the Sunnis by far on this occasion), holding up pictures of Sistani, Al-Sadr and some others. It wasn't violent, but it was angry, forceful and frightening. This has been the largest demonstration since the war.

I'm torn on the topic of elections. While I want elections because it's the 'democratic' thing to do, I'm afraid of the outcome. All the signs lead one to believe that elections will lead to a theocracy (which I dread). The current GC is *not* representative of the Iraqi people- neither Sunnis nor Shi'a approve of them… but will elections bring about a more representative group of would-be leaders? Furthermore, what if the Iraqi 'majority' *do* want a theocracy like the one in Iran? If the choice boils down to a democracy styled like the one in America or a theocracy styled like the one in Iran, how do you think a Muslim country is going to choose?

For more info on Al-Sistani, check out his site- it's in Arabic, Farsi, English, French and Urdu... quite impressive. His biography is here: Sistani's Biography



http://www.sistani.org/


and for those who were *very* interested in temporary marriage, check this out.


- posted by river @ 5:48 AM
Guest_tajer
Simple questions, If the 137 was really an islamic groups request and had been declined by Bremer, why we didn't heard about massive demostartions as what was the case with the election?
سؤال بسيط
اذا كان القانون المذكر قد جاء بناء على طلب والحاح الاطراف الاسلاميه, وان بريمر قد رفضه. لماذا لم نسمع عن المضاهرات الصاخبه تنديدا بذلك الرفض كما هو الحال مع الانتخابات؟
Guest
Please have a look to what MR Alsamuraee, one of the leading writers in Alzaman.
This might give tou a glue to real political reason behind Alzamman probaganda about this 137 proposed law.. The whole article in Alsharq alawsat of 01/28
. The article was talking about the election

QUOTE
"Especially  after the excersise of law that reject the civil law as an example of the Shia faction rule
خصوصاً بعد تجربة قرار الغاء «قانون الأحوال الشخصية» كأنموذج للمشروع الطائفي
"

Mr Alsamuraee knows very well that those who were driving for this were islamist from both Shia and sunni and the sunni one where more anxious becuase most of the civil law was written according to moderate Shia islamic Fiquh , different than Sunni Shria..
Guest
http://www.asharqalawsat.com/default.asp?i...&article=216171


In arabic.. Interesting article
Guest
A great victory for the women rights in Iraq.. In arabic
IGC decoded to lift the condition of having a male permission on the travelling of Women.. The Baathist regime issued that law , by which women can't travel abroad without some relative and need to get permission of some male in her family. I know a phd professor that wants to participate in an internatoonal confrence, she was not be able because her Hasbend was died and her elder son was in military "not allowed to travel".. It was a night mare for women..

http://www.altaakhi.com/archive/today/p6.pdf

Starngely no one in the main strean arab or other media cover this great achievment to Iraqi Women.. Espectially the Alzaman in London
salim
http://www.nahrain.com/d/news/04/02/09/bgd0209c.html
In Arabic.. Loans to women under 55 to start their own small buisness..
salim
GC appoint 15 women to be debuty ministers..In arabic..


http://www.nahrain.com/d/news/04/02/11/bgd0211b.html
Guest
http://www.elaph.com.:9090/elaph/arabic/fr...315855250492300

حوار دير شبيغل اللامانيه مع السيد السستاني


"كثر الجدل فيما يتعلق بحقوق النساء في العراق، فهل تجدون مانعا من مشاركة المرأة العراقية في العملية السياسية وتسلمها للمناصب المختلفة كعضوية البرلمان والوزارة وغير ذلك ؟
....لا ما مانع من ذلك مع توفر الشروط والمؤهلات القانونية ، ومن المؤ ّمل أن يكون للمرأة العراقية دور كبير في تطور العراق ورقيّه ورفعته

ِ
Guest_salim
http://www.aljeeran.net/viewarticle.php?id...pg=index&art=mp
مقال طائفي اخر للزمان التي عودتنا على نشر مثل هذه الاكاذيب لاغراض بعيده عن قظيه المراءه ولخدمه توجهات سيسسيه طائفيه مريضه. المقال يحاول الزج باسماء وجهات شيعيه في مجال الادعاء انهم يفرضون الحجاب على الموضفات.
الهدف من المقال واضح وخصوصا لمن يقراءه من داخل العراق. ومثير للسخريه.
الغريب ان تقوم صحفيه انترنيتيه ملتزمه ومتفهمه لما يجري في العراق بنشر المقال على صفحتها الاولى ومن دون تعليق .. الادهى ان تعليق الصحيفه الوجيد جاء مؤيدا لما جاء فيه..
Guest_salim
http://www.nahrain.com/d/news/04/02/28/srq0228l.html
تأكيدا لماورد من اكاذيب "الزمان" ذات الدافع الطائفي الضيق.. انضر المقال اعلاه في الشرق الاوسط
Guest_salim
Just wondering , why Alzaman and all factionist friends not talking about the great achievment that Iraqi women had by having the new transition constitution apply the the rule of 25% women in at all decision making levels ..
This should be considered as one of the most important step forward ..
Just a question to high light that the real cause behind all those who are claiming the defending of women rights are really politically driven..

اتسائل لماذا "الزمان" وكل الاصدقاء الطائفيين لا يحتفلون بالانجاز الكبير الذي حققته المراه العراقيه عندما نص الدستور المؤقت الجديد على نسبه خمسه وعشرين بالمائه للمراءه في جميع محافل القرار.. هذا النص الذي يعتبر اكبر خطوه الى الامام..
فقط اردت ان اثير ذلك لابين ان الدوافع الحقيقيه لهم هي دوافع سياسيه محضه
Tom Grey
I'm not too much in favor of sexual (or racial or ethnic) quotas, in gov't and especially in democratic gov't. But a minimum 25%, much more than most W. democracies have at the top, seems like a pretty good way to break away from excessive discrimination against women.

And if it works, that will be great. And those who critisize Bush on women's issues, don't care about Iraqi women so much, they just look for a club, any club, or even a lie that might be a club, to use against Bush. It's disgusting.
CharlesWT
I remember the last day I spent there before I returned to Baghdad, and I was watching Al-Samawa local TV (now they have their own local station) and it was broadcasting one of the sessions of the district’s council when a woman stood up wearing the traditional costume and behind her was a group of women, she started to yell in the face of the chairman of the council saying “Listen to me! You can’t ignore our voice anymore. These women elected me and put their trust in me and I demand authorities like those of men. My voice will not stay low from now on and I have to give those who elected me what they need”. I don’t think you can realize the meaning of this picture. It simply means that we have moved tens of years forward in a matter of months and we have broken the chains of a long dark past. The cry of this woman was enough to awaken me to the great progress that happened. Iraq The Model: Not in my city.
salim
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/050221/usnews/21iraq.htm

An article that I found the concern about Shia list victory as a polically motivated.

For many reasons:
1- The coalition list includes non Shia, Sunni, Christian, Sabea and Yazedee
2- Includes very popular and powerful secular figures such as Alchalabi and Al shahristani , aslo leftest .
3- The real concern has nothing to do with this list, it has to do with some Islamic pariteis, such as Kurd Islamic party "sunni" , Islamic party of Iraq "sunni" , Wahabees "sunni" , Alsadrees "shia".. All of them are not officially represented in the list

As for the islamic parites in the list, they represt no more than 35%.. Non of them is a radical islamist one.
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