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Baghdadee بغدادي

What is the real story about Shia reaction?


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Lee,

 

Do you believe that the majority of the Sunni Arabs will join with your vision of Iraq? (And again, I do not question about the Ba'athi and the terrorists--they will plague any free people--and especially Iraqi).

 

Please have a look to Guest's reply above.. I would claim that most intellectual Arab sunni's " that are not Baathist or Wahabee's" are not against the real democratic process.. You can confirm that with Zeyad, he is an Arab Sunni and from a well known and powerful Trainglee descendent family..

 

All what those who keep yeilding " Shia are comming", is just to put hold on the legitimate democratic process.

 

I asked Mr. Basim Mustaar to comment on this and we might have a detailed answer soon from an Iraqi shcolar that realy believe in.

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Cool Breeze,

 

Salim, could you expand on this statement?

 

QUOTE 

There is no way that a majority constitution would be a nursery for any sort of dictatorship, including Islamic government..

 

 

 

Why/How are you certain this wouldn't/couldn't happen

 

Very simple math, Shia are not more than 65%, Just like others, they are not single opiniated. If we assure the constitution to have a pass percentage , say 80% as absolute majority . Then there is no way an Islamic state can be expected.

First of all there is only 10% of Shia that might sympythise with such thing while. Second, the majority of those who might push for this are Wahabee's . It might be true that Wahabee's are finding a strong holds today within the Arab Sunni's , but they are a very low percentage compared to Iraqis who are against it.

 

To my understanding, there is any political group that might dare having such a goal in their agenda.. They know people would never vote for them.

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U.S. Rejects Iraqi Plan to Hold Census by Summer

 

BAGHDAD, Iraq, Dec. 3 — Iraqi census officials devised a detailed plan to count the country's entire population next summer and prepare a voter roll that would open the way to national elections in September. But American officials say they rejected the idea, and the Iraqi Governing Council members say they never saw the plan to consider it.

 

[...]

 

The American plan for Iraqi sovereignty proposes instead a series of caucus-style, indirect elections.

 

Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, the most influential Shiite cleric, is calling for national elections next June, not the indirect balloting specified in the American plan for turning over control of the country. But American officials, and some Iraqis say the nation is not ready for national elections, in part because the logistics are too daunting.

 

more:

U.S. Rejects Iraqi Plan to Hold Census by Summer

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Quiet cleric a powerful voice in Iraq

 

BAGHDAD, Iraq -- He doesn't command tanks or hold a title with the U.S.-led occupation. He never appears in public and rarely leaves his small house. But Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Husseini al-Sistani might be the most powerful man in Iraq.

 

His power comes from his pre-eminence among Iraq's majority Shiite Muslims.

 

[...]

 

"The time has come for us to get our rights," said Sheik Abdel Mehdi al-Karbalayi, al-Sistani's representative in the Shiite holy city of Karbala. "I'm not saying there will be military action. Maybe it will be civilian. But there will be instability."

 

more:

Quiet cleric a powerful voice in Iraq

 

______________________________________

 

Shi'ite demonstrators demand elections

 

HILLA, Iraq — Members of a Shi'ite Muslim movement demonstrated outside the local coalition headquarters yesterday to demand that elections be held before a new government and constitution are established.

The protesters held up banners and daubed cement blocks around the headquarters building with slogans such as "Down U.S.A." and "Death to America."

 

more:

Shi'ite demonstrators demand elections

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A Leftist has his say.....

 

 

Sistani as a pure democrat?

 

What I meant by that was only that in his fatwas since June, he has consistently said that legitimate government must derive from the will of the people ("al-hukumah ash-shar`iyyah munbathiqah min iradat ash-sha`b" or words to that effect). He specifically says that sovereignty derives from the people. That seems to me as democratic as anything said by Enlightenment thinkers in Europe. Of course, Sistani does demarcate a limit to democracy, which is that the people must not legislate or adopt policy that directly contradicts Islamic law. But then all democracies are limited by constitutional provisions. A majority of Americans now might not vote for all the 10 amendments to the constitution that make up the Bill of Rights. But they are stuck with them anyway. Likewise, Sistani thinks an Iraqi democracy would be stuck with the "constitutional" principles of shari`ah or Islamic law. But he nevertheless insists on one person one vote as the guarantor of governmental legitimacy. That seems to me a commitment to pure democracy.

 

----Juan Cole

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George B,

 

Please stop spamming the boards with news articles. You must understand that for this to work that someone has to take the time to translate the english posts to arabic and the arabic ones to english. Nobody wants to translate your posts.

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What is Democracy?

In the dictionary definition, democracy "is government by the people in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system." In the phrase of Abraham Lincoln, democracy is a government "of the people, by the people, and for the people.”

When discussing issues with Americans, we have to talk through their wavelength; otherwise we aren’t going to hear each other. So if we agree on the principle, we need to understand the Iraqi population and where the majorities and minorities sit. And I don’t like to re-iterate the percentages of Arabs, Kurds, Turkmen, Sunnis, Shiats, Christians and many many others as you can all take them from some politicized censuses done in the past. The problem is not with the definition of democracy but with the view of the American policy toward Iraq. If the Americans are sincerely working towards making Iraq a democratic model in the Middle East to fight terrorism then they have to do it right regardless of the outcome. The big American fear is the domination of Shias in Iraq despite the peaceful reception of most shias to the presence of the coalition forces in their country. That fear was a reflect of past experiences with Shias in Iran and Lebanon toward the worldwide western interests.

 

As we all hear all the time that the Americans want a democracy but without Islamists domination. I totally agree with this point of view but lets go back to the definition they have in their constitution [democracy is a government "of the people, by the people, and for the people.”]. You can not have it both ways, it is either democracy or not. It is the people power, and regardless of the outcome, the gain America and the West gain by having a democratically elected government in Iraq is more than the loss keeping the following points in mind (time will prove it anyway):

- Iraqi Shias are not a single faction. They have Seculars, Islamists, Nationalists, Tribalists and mainly Pacifists.

- Moderation in Shias believes is more dominant than extremism.

- Shiasim has nothing to do with nationalism. An Iranian Spiritual Leader in Najaf like Al-Sistani has the power not because of his nationality but because of his knowledge. It is not a political power but a spiritual one.

- Iraqi Shias are fed up with Nationalistic or Islamic Radicalism. They hate political parties, movements and militias. It is a sort of paranoia from the ugly face of the Baath's Fascism. The big proof is their wide spread unorganized abandons to the Shia radical leader Muqtada Al-Sadr. If Al-Sistani promot Radicalism one day, he will be abondoned the next day. Shias and most other Iraqis want peace, social welfare, health, education, and a better economy. That is in fact their understanding to the term "democracy" as an outcome more than power straggle and gaining privileges.

 

Beside all these facts, American should promote moderate Islam rather that secularism in the Middle East. Imposing secularism on Iraq will have a counter effect on the Middle East as every one will consider this as a war against Islam and gives people like Osama Bin Laden more power for recruitment.

 

I believe that having both Shias and Kurds on their side, Americans have a golden opportunity to promote freedom and fight terrorism

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Averoes,

I agree that the path towards democracy is long, you Americans would have a lot of stories to teach if you were allowed to!

My point is; don't let "seeking for perfection" spoil the exercise of democracy. We need to know who our real allies are , we need to differentiate between those of real causes and those who are trying their best to redirect the mission after they returned empty handed with all their deadly efforts to stop the liberation of Iraqis.

 

Comparing Iraq to Afghanistan, don't you notice that Iraqis got into GC council with all its factions just months after liberation and without any help from any non Iraqi.. I don't think you might beleive the stupid story of GC being appointed, though!

 

About Chalabi, I would like to continue on this under the Article Chalabi

 

Just to have the current article more into it's subject.. I will quote you there and reply..

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BahirJ,

 

You have a revolutionary consciousness...Iraq is going to need that independence standpoint for the long journey ahead.

 

"An Iranian Spiritual Leader in Najaf like Al-Sistani has the power not because of his nationality but because of his knowledge. It is not a political power but a spiritual one."

 

That is going to be the biggest obsticle for many Americans...when they see "Shia Spiritual Leader" they only see "Iranian puppet." Latin American went through this same trouble during the Cold War. Every popular political philosopher was ignored as "Soviet puppet" or "communist"

 

"Beside all these facts, American should promote moderate Islam rather that secularism in the Middle East."

 

Before the invasion there were many Pro-Invasion thinkers who kept suggesting that "moderate Islam" was not real and the only action that Arabs and Muslems understood was brute strength. Bernard Lewis had suggested this.

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Salim: "My point is; don't let "seeking for perfection" spoil the exercise of democracy." I agree. We should know from our own experience that perfection is not possible. We want to make sure, however, that Iraq gets something that not only looks like a democracy, and is a democracy, but has a chance to last as a democracy. It is not so much the Shia we fear as the Baathists.

 

Friedman pointed out a few weeks ago that if Iraq was really a hotbed of immoderate factions as some have painted it, civil war would have erupted and the coalition could not stop it.

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Guest Christina

Any American who has done their "homework" knows that Sistani is a good man who believes that clerics should not be in politics as politics would corrupt the cleric. We do NOT fear that Sistani will attempt to make Iraq into another Iran. His council should be sought because he is a learned man.

 

Iraq should look at all the various forms of democracy around the world, choose the parts they like the best, and form their very own form of democracy. There is no way it will be perfect from the start, but Iraqis will enjoy perfecting it for generations.

 

Good luck.

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العراقي ما بين عهدين

العراقيون الراجعون الى بلدهم عبر الاردن يعاملون معامله سيئه للغايه من قبل الجهات الاردنيه وكأن الاردنين يريدون ايصال رساله الى العراقيين وخصوصا الشيعه والاكراد منهم والذين يشكلون الغلبيه العظمى من العراقيين من انهم خونه باستقدامهم الامريكان والترحيب بقدومهم .

وروى لي احد القادمين حديثا من انه تعرض لمضايقات كثير اجبرته على تحملها هو ما راى من وجه تشابه من غلظه الشرطي الاردني بتلك التي تذكره بشرطه صدام .

لكنه عندما وصل الى الحدود العراقيه ذهب مستنجدا بالضابط الامريكي وقال له الست مسؤول عن حمايتي لانك محتلا لي ؟ او لست تمثل امريكا التي تفخر بحمايتها للديمقراطيه والحريه والعدل ؟ فرد عليه الضابط صحيح ولكن ما هو طلبك؟ فاخبره من معامله ذاك الاردني , وما هي الا لحظات حتى قام هذا الضابط الامريكي بقياده مدرعته ليجلب الضابط الاردني وشرطته مكبلين ليتحفظ عليهم في سجن عراقي !!! وكادت ان تحدث ازمه دبلوماسيه بين سلطه الاحتلال والاردن الا ان الموضوع قد سوي بينهما على ان لايعودوا الاردنيين لمثلها مستقبلا .

ونفس السائق كاد ان يحدث معه نفس الامر ولكن مع الحدود السوريه هذه المره فما كان الا ان يخبر الضابط السوري من انه صاحب تلك القضيه فما كان من السوري الا ان يعدل عن رايه ليتصرف باحترام جم حيث ان الخبر قد شاع بالمنطقه قبل ايام.

لا ادري كم هي مصداقيه هذه القصه الا انها متداوله بشكل كبير في العراق هل لانهم يريدون اخافه دول الجوار من ان لهم الان حليف قوي يستطيع ان يحميهم ام انها قصه حقيقيه ؟

هذا الامر دعاني للتفكير جديا لزياره وطني بعد ان هاجرته قسرا رغما عني بعد ان كان الموت يقاربني وكانه ظل يتبعني في كل مكان فقررت ان اتاكد بنفسي من حقيقه الوضع فقمت بالاتصال ببعض ممن اثق بهم لاتعرف على بعض الحقيقه فقمت اولا بالاتصال باختي في العراق وهي سيده لا تهتم بالسياسه ولا بالاحداث لا في عهد صدام ولا الان فسألتها عن الوضع فاجابت ان الامريكين اناس طيبون واحيانا نحتمي بهم ممن نخافهم من العراقيين!!!!!

وعندما سالت صديق لي عن الوضع فاجاب بانه سيء للغايه وان الامريكين يقومون برشق المواطنين الابرياء بالرصاص عشوائيا عند تعرضهم لاي هجوم وبذلك يثبتون وحشيتهم وجبنهم !!!!!!!!

ومعظم العراقيين يتارجح رايهم ما بين هذين الا ان الغالبيه العظمى ممن التقيتهم او ممن سمعت عنهم يشيرون الى ان اصحاب الراي الثاني لايتجاوز حجمها العشرون بالمائه على اكبراحتمال .

ربما توضح هذه الصوره ما كان يعيش به العراق في عهد صدام وبنفس النسبه تقريبا ولكن اليوم انعكست تلك الصوره ليكون المضطهدون (بفتح الهاء)هم الغالبيه التي تنعم بالحريه .

 

 

بهلول الحكيم

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Translating Christina

ترجمه كرستينا

 

اي امريكي من الذين يعرفون , يفهم ان السستاني هو رجل طيب حيث يعتقد ان رجال الدين يجب ان لايتدخلوا في السياسه لان السياسه سوف تلوثهم. نحن لانخشى السستاني ان يحاول تغيير العراق الى ايران اخرى. اجتهاداته يجب ان تحترم لانه رجل فاهم.

على العراق ان ينضر الى التجارب المختلفه حول العالم للديموقراطيه, ويختار مايناسبه منها. لعمل تجربتهه الخاصه.ليس هناك امكتنيه لان تكون كامله منذ البدايه ولكن العراقيين سوف يستانسون تطويرها عبر الاجيال.

حظا سعيدا

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