Why Muslims are not free to interpret Koran?

[Guest Guest]

The baathi coordinate the smuggling routes for people and explosives. They pay someone to build a bomb and another to steal a gas tanker. They pay a third to park the tanker in the street. Then they hand a bomb belt and a map to the Queda.

 

Yes, Queda did the act. But without baathi it would be impossible to happen.

 

Which baathi rats have enough power and money to make all these things happen?

 

IMO, security will get better when the price of killing is more than the wealthy baathi are willing to pay.

[aldoctor]

The matter under discussion I happen to be knoweldgable of namely: Quranic Interpretation. I am writing a book on the matter. So I see no reason why I can not give some sort of a short intro ina series of posts. This I guess is the preface.

 

What ever medium a message is sent through there is distortion. Something is lost because of the partiality of perception, the effect of the medium, and the influence of the prior. The prior is a problem because the prism through which one views the text alters one’s ultimate conclusion. This creates problems especially when decision made based on that belief affects other people.

To be able to judge the text we should be able to discern intention. There is no guarantee that the mapping between meaning and words for any two speakers is the same. Furthermore, the meaning of any given word may evolve through time changing the message of the sentence completely.

These problems are exacerbated by the multiplicity of meanings for any given word creating a universe of possible meanings. This renders the probability of understanding the original intention quiet small. The mapping becomes un-invertible when the work is translated.

 

The problem with interpreting any text is discussed by brnaches of modern study.

[aldoctor]

on school of modern thought looking at ways to interpet text is Jurisprudence:

 

According to the legal information institute the word jurisprudence derives from the Latin term juris prudentia, which means "the study, knowledge, or science of law." In the United States jurisprudence commonly means the philosophy of law. Legal philosophy has many aspects, but four of them are the most common. The first and the most prevalent form of jurisprudence seek to analyze, explain, classify, and criticize entire bodies of law. Law school textbooks and legal encyclopedias represent this type of scholarship. The second type of jurisprudence compares and contrasts law with other fields of knowledge such as literature, economics, religion, and the social sciences. The third type of jurisprudence seeks to reveal the historical, moral, and cultural basis of a particular legal concept. The fourth body of jurisprudence focuses on finding the answer to such abstract questions as “What is law?” How do judges (properly) decide cases?

[aldoctor]

So here is what my other texts mean:

One can not interet any text properly without proper methdology.

If they do so they will not fail to prevert its intention.

One example is clear:

These salafis belive they understand teh Quran without proper training, they turned it into a tool to satsify their homosidal suicicdal fantasies. So with all due respect any suggestion that opening the door for personal itneretation is the solution for Islam certainly shows that people do not know that this whole mess was started when engineers with beards looked at this very complicated text. For more about hte special structure of the Quran, Scriptural interetaion methdologly, please ask me and I will forward you the book. You can also see jursipruddence books or textual anlaysis books. Almizaan has a blurb about it by tabatibaii and he is a genius no doubt.

 

So the following post should give you and idea why its for these wahabis to recruit

[aldoctor]

Let me tell you a story:

I met this guy his name is Hafiz. I said your name is Hafiz what does that mean?

He said my name is not Hafiz, they call me that because I momorize the Kuran. (I am not misspelling this he said it like this.) So I was impressed, it is a documen of significant size. I said wow, what is your real name he said Farhan. Where is your name in the quran? He did not know. I said: "La tafr7o in allaha la yo7ibu alfari7een. " it means do not be be (farhan)allah does not love plural(farhan.) He was stumped there he was. His name was not loved by God. It is only given to monkeys in any Arab country. So there he was a monkey who did not know his name was not a fvaorable one, but he memorized the whole quran.

SO I was stumped he did not know the phnology particulary well so he was better replaced by a CD. I thought maybe he knew the meaning or the history, well he id don't not a word. Then, I said maybe you should start learning the meaning of surat alkumaa. He seemed like a wahabi so I had no sympathy.

For those of you who do not know the friday preyer: It speaks of a donkey that carreis books. well there you have it

This story is telling because these people just memorize and gain status by doing so. Infact they could be sayingt he whole thing wrong no one would know. Well, then you can see since the ARABS ARE A MINORITY IN MUSLIMS. The arabs are less than 1/5. Now in this one in five there a brilliant trend financed by saudi money, its whabism.

[aldoctor]

Once Saudi money took hold it was easy to spread this ridiculousness amongst farhans all over. Yet the question is why was it so easy to convince arabs of it. Simple because the issue of interpreting text of law and philosophy can not be left to anyone with a bachelors in science. Despite of what they think and with all due respect Doctors are not GODS and engineers can not solve EVERY problem.

 

SO here a moral philosophy problem that is at the heart of all of this: Do the ends justify the means. Well if you do not see the relevance, then you can not blame the salafis. You see in the end, it does not matter what religion you are as long as you think that the ends justify the means. Because you will always find a higher cause for which you can suspend your whole ethical system. Out the door goes morality and in comes zeal. Rationality becomes optional, but faith in the cause essential. You see Zarqawi's letter to bin laden gives a great example. He says and I am paraphraising: I know that the blood of innoncent muslims must be spilled but it is for a the cause. In another spot of his letter, he says to wake the sunnis from their hybernation we should trigger a civil war. You see, I bet that most people don't think having an extensive background is necessary to read scripture, but if you don't you might catch the disease called wahabism;

 

you get a big mouth and a small brain

your beard becomes longer and your robe shorter

and before you know it you start reading more ahdith than quran

then you start thinking you know enough to save others

then you gather a groupf of people blow yourselves straight to badWord

 

 

the only bright side of this, is in the long run: Islam has a chance of getting rid of all these nut cases. Because they kill themselves. I just wish they could find a way to do it alone.

[salim]

Let me tell you a story:

I met this guy his name is Hafiz. I said your name is Hafiz what does that mean?

He said my name is not Hafiz, they call me that because I momorize the Kuran. (I am not misspelling this he said it like this.) So I was impressed, it is a documen of significant size. I said wow, what is your real name he said Farhan. Where is your name in the quran? He did not know. I said: "La tafr7o in allaha la yo7ibu alfari7een. " it means do not be be (farhan)allah does not love plural(farhan.) He was stumped there he was. His name was not loved by God. It is only given to monkeys in any Arab country. So there he was a monkey who did not know his name was not a fvaorable one, but he memorized the whole quran.

SO I was stumped he did not know the phnology particulary well so he was better replaced by a CD. I thought maybe he knew the meaning or the history, well he id don't not a word. Then, I said maybe you should start learning the meaning of surat alkumaa. He seemed like a wahabi so I had no sympathy.

For those of you who do not know the friday preyer: It speaks of a donkey that carreis books. well there you have it

This story is telling because these people just memorize and gain status by doing so. Infact they could be sayingt he whole thing wrong no one would know. Well, then you can see since the ARABS ARE A MINORITY IN MUSLIMS. The arabs are less than 1/5. Now in this one in five there a brilliant trend financed by saudi money, its whabism.

Aldoctor is touching a very important point..

[Guest Moron99]

If I understand his story it is the same story as my engineering college.

 

I had many friends who would go to class every day and take detailed notes, they would do every homework assignment, and they would memorize every formula. I only attended class on test days, did no homework, and memorized no formulas. But when the test scores came back I almost always had the highest score. Yes, the teachers would - and did - penalize me for skipping class and not turning in homework. My behavior sent the wrong message to other students. But the difference was simple. The other students focused upon memorizing every thread that the teacher showed them and I focused upon understanding the tapestry. When test day came there would be problems that had not been seen before. Those who spent their time memorizing ended up having their minds so cluttered with details that they were unable to understand new ideas. Once the tapestry is understood, then every thread - both known and unknown - may be logically deduced.

 

Aldoctor's story sounds like the Madrasa version of my engineering college. It is better to understand the tapestry than memorize every thread.

[aldoctor]

Dear Moron:

 

Farahan's story is not a nother vaersion of engineering. Farhan knew nothing nothing. If you must have an engineering analogy, then you must talk about a pasitani guy who memorized the material in English(he does not speak neglish) then he coppeid his saudi frien's test answers.

In Christianity it is somewhat amplified:

The original commentary(by jesus) was in Armiac about material(tranlated partly from Hyroglyphics then rewrtitten from memory by Ezra in Hebrew(after the destruction of the seocnd temple). The text book was written in Greek mostly as a biography of the wuthor with some teachings(21/27 books of the new testament don't wuote Uesus) then translated into english with much libety by specialists like kings and scuh. The Teacher's assistant is then taking excerpts and free licesnse to interpret the translation in his own words. SOme Ta's ask for donation in lieu of understanding the material to grant you an A. Some students disgruntled decide to split into 15000 (there are 15000 groups of christainity in the US)groups. Then some people opt to go home and drop put of college and do their own reading.

[JCHFleetguy]

Aldoctor,

 

An interesting version of Christianity's splintering - but one I do not recognize in my own experience as a Christian. Perhaps I am not understanding you correctly.

 

Salim has talked about the differences between the Shia, with each Muslim responsible to God and the mosque providing teachers who are not able to order types of belief and/or action; and the Sunni, with the clerics able to direct the believer to act and/or believe in certain ways.

 

This is also the source of the fundamental split in Christianity. Do individual Christians have a responsibility to read and understand scripture under God's tutelage; or are we required to follow the direction of the religious leaders of our particular sect in understanding God's Word?

 

Hence, the Catholics believe the Pope infallible when it comes to directions on the faith; and his edicts require following even if they sound wrong to the individual Catholic - and Catholics can be removed from the church for not doing so. The Catholic Church deemed lay people unable to understand the Bible and discouraged them reading it until Vatican II. Luther translated the Bible into German which angered the Catholic Chruch.

 

Myself, I do not believe the "Nuremburg Defense" (I was only following orders) saves me in God's eyes from violating His revealed will. I am responsible to know what God has revealed in His word; and follow that (even against my religious teacher's belief) under the direction of God to my spirit.

[salim]

Salim has talked about the differences between the Shia, with each Muslim responsible to God and the mosque providing teachers who are not able to order types of belief and/or action; and the Sunni, with the clerics able to direct the believer to act and/or believe in certain ways.

 

I don't remeber said that, would you please clarify..

What I said is that historically, Sunni mosques played a critical rule in Sunni Moslims faith and direction.. These Imams were used to be appointed by Big financing organizations or goverments.

With Shia , Mosques are not the core , religious guid is the core and people are free to follow what ever they think good for them..

After the fall of Saddam, Systani was ONE os the Ayatoulahs in Najaf, and still, but becuase of his moderate stands, Iraqi shia were freerly choose to fellow as their spiritual guid. But that might not be the case with other Shia outside Iraq, who might have their own .. However, as the political process that Systani called for is progressing in Iraq, he will get more support by Shia community around the world and specially in Iran..

[JCHFleetguy]

Is that different from what I said you said?

[salim]

There is a small difference

and the Sunni, with the clerics able to direct the believer to act and/or believe in certain ways.

 

Indeed both Shia and Sunni religios moslims would follow a cleric, the difference , Asunni look to the mosque and follow who ever appointed as Imam. A shia would shop around among so many "graduated" scholars and follow who ever comply with his god feelings and interst.. A shia decision is not physically restricted to a place or geography.

I think both are stemed from a hiostorical reasons in relation to tyrant state took over religion that faced our Islamic history.. One goes a long and the other rebeled

[JCHFleetguy]

I was placing a cleric, not the imam, in charge of the mosque. So we agree.

[salim]

Ohh No.. Imam and cleric is same meaning!

 

What I ment is that Mosque pas a place play a central role in Sunni sect while , spiritual leader played that rule in Shia sect.

That was for historical reasons. Tyrants tried to use religion , as the case to day with most Moslim governemnts, so they found best way is to direct their followers toward a physical one which easily be controlled through appointed Clerics. For same reason , and inorder to skip that control, Shia distant their beleif from such core role, they kept mosques at its prime position but without link to the cleric or Imam. Today Shia consider Moque as a place for worshipping.. It is very normal practice today that an average Shia hate to find cleric talking in politics, he called it "Syasah" means politics not religion.

 

So Shia fly way far to find some spiritual leader that he/she can trust..

 

Please let me know if I expressed my self well..