New Iraq Constitution

[salim]

Today another strange demand of the non ellected sunni arab representative was decleared by The baathee Dr. kamal hamdoun in an interview on Alraqia TV. The demand is to remove the cluase that grant the kids of any Iraqi female the Iraqi citizenship as the case with men. He said that this is not incomply with our Arab traditions of considering that right of name only to men as women has no such right to inherit such right . When Mr. Mithal Alousi, a sunni Arab , remind him that such demand is a non Qoranic where Qoran said "The Paradise is in serve to Mothers", Mr. Hamdoun replied "that is in Paradise" !!.

This demand is in full discomply with CEDAW international code that the new draft is calling to comply with.. The starnge is that the shia islamist accept that while a SECULAR Baathe sunni Arab as Mr. Hamdoun who is the head of Lawer association of Iraq, didn't!!!

[salim]

Another interesting declaration by Mr. hamdoun was in reply to question about why not leaving it to people to decide on the draft.he immedialy refused that saying that he doesn't trust the process. this proved to me that they realy aware of how much their stands are realy supported by Sunnis in the three sUNI PROVENCES.

[salim]

Have a look to today's NT article by ROBERT F. WORTH and JAMES GLANZ

We need to work harder in freeing the will of our brother Sunni Arbs from the hyjack of the Sadamees and Jihadists. Let them go for the refrundum and express their free opinion about the constitution

 

A Sunni member of the constitutional drafting committee, Mahmoud al-Mashadani, said he favored approving the document. But he added that he feared he could become a target of more militant Sunnis if he were to speak out about it, particularly if the Muslim Scholars Association, an influential Sunni group, were to denounce the charter.

 

"Who is going to protect me when I'm walking in the streets after that?" he said, adding that he had just heard a Sunni imam denouncing those who supported the constitution as infidels.

 

Other Sunnis have expressed similar fears, especially after two Sunnis involved in drafting the constitution were assassinated last month.

[Guest Musfeser]

In arabic , the suni baathee objections

http://www.alrafidayn.com/Story/News/N28_08_05_2.html

 

1- Islam as the only source

2- No rights for women kids to citizen ship because this might inflate the Iraqi society with strangers.

Many others..Interesting to read

[salim]

Have a look to the NT's article by DEXTER FILKINS and ROBERT F. WORTH

Two points that I already made to this post..

 

 

Ambassador Khalilzad suggested that some of the 15 Sunni negotiators supported the constitution, but were afraid to say so publicly.

 

"There are threats of intimidation," he said. "Some are afraid that if they support it their lives could be at risk."

 

For at least a handful of the Sunni negotiators, like Mr. Mashadani, the threat of death appeared to play a role. Iraqi insurgent and terrorist groups, including Al Qaeda, have promised to kill any Iraqi who takes part in the constitutional drafting process. Two Sunnis on the committee were killed last month.

 

Sunni members of the constitutional panel said they had held a final meeting at noon, where they agreed to reject the draft constitution they had been handed the day before. They cited longstanding sources of disagreement, such as language that would allow the majority Shiite community to allow Iraq to be divided into autonomous regions.

 

The issue of Shiite autonomy highlighted the Sunni-Shiite divide. The Sunnis said they feared that allowing the Shiites to set up a huge autonomous area in the oil-rich south could be the first step in the dissolution of the country. Yet for many Shiites and Kurds, the Sunni reluctance to make a deal was really about their unwillingness to relinquish their dream of ruling Iraq, something they did almost without interruption from the country's birth in 1920 until the American invasion in 2003.

 

"The Sunnis must understand that they no longer have a monopoly on power," said Masoud Barzani, the Kurdish leader.

[JCHFleetguy]

Salim,

 

My initial reaction is that the referrendum will fail in October - and we will have elections for a new interim parliment (instead of a permanent one) in December.

 

Then, the new Constitution committee will get to re-write this draft.

 

Or do you think at least 34% of the population will accept the draft in in all but two of the provinces?

[salim]

JCHFleetguy

I hate gambling but here I can bet for the win.. The win is not if it going to be YES or NO, the real win is for first time in ME history people will go anciously and freely to vote for one side or other. This by itself is the real win for the Iraqi people and their lovers.

 

As for my expectation, I think if the Sunni Baathist are given the chance to feel that there is a possibility of win, then they will allow sunni's to go for voting. We need to give them such feeling. I don't know how , but this would be a critical one. They are not sure till now , that is why some of them stater to say it is not legal process rather than encouraging their Sunni Baathist fellows. Indeed they don't trust them.

The question is not if the vote will pass , the question if the three Arab Sunni will vote NO in majority of two thrid I can't tell, but I would like to see this happening before stepping forward in any direction. We need to build our new democracy and we need to give it a chance..

Let us not be hijaced by our fears , Iraqis had beaten expectations before , let us wait and see..

[JCHFleetguy]

Salim,

 

Amen brother. I think either result will be a victory for Iraq and will serve to help co-opt people to democratic over violent means.

 

If a serious percentage of Iraqis (Sunni, Kurd, and Shia) vote in December for a parliment (interim or permanent) it will certainly be a massive step forward.

[salim]

http://www.nahrain.com/d/news/05/08/29/nhr0829h.html

 

The new draft after amendments .. Still not uthintic.. I am looking for an official web site

 

Interestingly what drew my attention about the word "the international support of Those who love us" in the introduction was amended to be "Sadeek and Muhibina" "our friends and those who love us" That is to say Kurds are reading my comment and asked for it to assure that they send theoir message too. :-) kidding. Interesting though

، ووسطَ مؤازرةٍ عالمية من  اصدقائنا ومحبينا،

[salim]

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/ir...-home-headlines

 

Above is the LA times translations.. Seems it skipped my favirot statement in the PREAMBLE " The International support by those who love us".. I am paraniod a bit on this :-)

 

Have a look

[salim]

Thanks to Moron99, here is another english translated copy

 

AP version.. pdf

 

Keep on not pleasing me. This version too dropped the "Muhibeena" statement of "those who love us".. I started to doubt if it is really there.. However all Arabic copes showed it !!

[abusadiq]

تحرير سنة العراق

احمد الربعي

 

مؤسف حقا أن تنجح مجموعة صغيرة في اختطاف العرب السنة في العراق، والتحدث باسمهم ودفعهم إلى مواقف سلبية يدفعون ويدفع البلد ثمنها غاليا.

 

مؤسف أن ينجح بعض بقايا نظام صدام في تحريك مظاهرات تحمل صور الطاغية في المناطق السنية، ومؤسف أن يكون بعض ممثلي السنة العرب ضد إصدار قرار تجريم حزب البعث، ومؤسف أن العرب السنة الذين يمثلون أطرافا عديدة من مثقفين وناشطين سياسيين وأكاديميين وعشائر، أصبح يتحدث باسمهم أشخاص وجماعات لا يمثلون إلا أنفسهم.

 

مؤسف أن بعض المساجد في المناطق السنية تسيطر عليها جماعات التطرف، وتحول خطب الجمع إلى تحريض للخروج على القانون وإلى مباركة العنف بأساليب ملتوية.

 

هناك ممن نصبوا أنفسهم ناطقين باسم العرب السنة، يتحدثون بلغة ظاهرها رحمة وباطنها عذاب. فالحديث يتم ضد الاحتلال ولكنه يبرر العنف ضد العراقيين، والحديث عن الفيدرالية باعتبارها تؤدي إلى تقسيم العراق عبر الخلط بين الفيدرالية بالمعنى الديمقراطي، كنظام أثبت نجاحه في دول متقدمة كثيرة، ومفهوم الفيدرالية الطائفية، التي تحدد الجغرافيا على أساس الانتماء الطائفي.

 

القوى والشخصيات العربية السنية في العراق يجب أن ترفع صوتها عاليا، وألا تسمح باختطاف العرب السنة وتخويفهم وتشكيكهم بأنفسهم وبوطنهم، فقد أدت الدعوة إلى مقاطعة الانتخابات الماضية، إلى إخلال بالتركيبة الاجتماعية والسياسية للمجتمع العراقي، وأدت إلى غياب العرب السنة عن البرلمان المنتخب. والمؤسف أن هؤلاء الذين دعوا إلى مقاطعة الانتخابات، هم الذين يصرخون ضد الأغلبية المنتخبة في مسألة وضع الدستور، ويتحدثون عن إبعاد وعزل العرب السنة، بينما هم يتحملون المسؤولية الكاملة عن هذا الوضع.

 

هذه الأقلية التي تدعي تمثيل السنة أربكت الوضع السياسي في العراق، وحاولت خلط الأوراق، وبعضهم يتحدث باسم الوطنية والديمقراطية ، ولكنهم يحنون إلى الماضي الدكتاتوري، وبعضهم أصبح صدى للإرهاب الدولي في العراق.

[Guest Guest]

NYT's article of today..

 

Saleh Mutlak, a member of the panel that drafted the constitution, said its members had gathered Monday to discuss having the National Assembly declared illegitimate, because the repeated extensions of the deadline for finishing the constitution violated transitional law.

 

Other prominent Sunnis added their voices to calls for a defeat of the constitution in October.

 

Salih Almutlak is a former Baathi who was send to England to complete his phd in Agriculture enginnering in the seventees after graduation from Bahdad Agriculture college. Despite his very low grades, just because of being very loyal !

[salim]

Baathist are relying on three provinces Annbar, Salah din and Baghdad! Yes baghdad.

We need to ecourage them to let their Sunni Arb fellows go for referundom hopping that they will vote for NO.. If Sunni's beat them there , that would be the real victory.. How to do that ?

 

Baathists know that they can't get the two third majority in Mosul or Diala.

They are prety confident about Annbar, let them feel that way.

As for Salah din , they are worried a bit as there is large Kurd and Shia communities. But these communities are not mixed with Sunni Arab , as the case in baghdad. So I think they are planning to have a huge threatening campains to block people in the towns of Balad and Tooz while allowing other Sunni Arab in other towns of Salah Din. We need to let them do that to remove their worry. But we need to apply huge security measures just days before the referundom in these two towns. When it will be too late for them to change their mind. I think the soft stand by the governrmnt with the current Baathist demonstartion in Salh din and Diala lifting Saddam photos, is helpping such plan. I am not sure if the governemnt is working on it though!

As for Baghdad, their main bet is Alsader's NO.. I think it is better that he gets along with them to please them for now.. They think that with his support they might win two third majority.. I like seeing Alsader put them in such mode.. I am sure he finally will not say No. The upmost that he can go for is to ask people to go for voting and leave it for people . He will risk his political future more than what he did already.. I bet on Chalbee to convince him, he trust the guy much more than baathists..Let us wait and see...

[Safaa]

Wanted to share this thread that is example of Iraqis brain storming about the draft..

 

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Waleed,

 

I am with a peaceful separation.

 

As you know you can not give YOUR experience to your kids, They have to make their experience.

 

We experienced the nationalism and burned our fingers with it.. we no more think of Al Umma Al Arabia and want a civilized peaceful Iraq for us and our coming generations.

 

Kurd parties are trying to build Alumma Alkurdia and will bring death and war everywhere and in particular to Kurd peaceful and lovely people.

 

Now that we live here in the west and tasted the democracy where all are equal in front of law,

we realised that virtue is NOT a race or ethnic group exclusivity and you can find phylosphers, scientists, and criminals in any group.. so the terms arabs or kurds are funny to my view.

 

I am with the separation because if we are against what these parties want we are accused to be racist and against Kurd.. and because Kurd people has to choose other leaders.

Try to go to any Kurdish voice chat, you will receive different consideration if you are FROM kurdish origin than if you are not.

This means that they are in the phase of building the nationalism that we left behind.

 

This constitution will bring civil war in Iraq at the time the Kurd parties want which will be when they onsider the international situation allow them to separate.

-Saa

 

####################################

 

Why, on the issue of Kurds' separation, Shia and Sunnis want the Kurds to decide now and not later, and why this language of "now or never". What harm would it make if they decided to separate later? This threatening language of "now or never" reflect the arabs' paranoia of any future Kurdish success and that is why they try put a lot of pressure on the Kurds to decide now. Arabs know very well the possibility of Kurdish success in making non-religious democractic state is more likely later than now so they force the Kurds to decide now. What a fake democracy?

Why all this hate for the Kurds to have a later choice? I guess it is to do with the Kurds' refusal to be part of the artificial Islamic and arab worlds and build a more a model based on liberal democracy.

 

If the Kurds manage to construct a new model of liberal decmocracy own and the rest of Iraq's sect build a rotten religious state then that would leave a huge mark of arabs' stupidity and Kurds intelligent paragmatism....salam....Ala

 

 

######################################

Saad my friend...

 

I think "Al Umma Al Arabia" still a very strong card that could be used by any dictator leader in Iraq, can use it easily and most people will follow him, these are facts, I don't think it is right to say that "Al Umma Al Arabia" banner is erased from Iraqi minds, Iraq structure based on troops, until now they talk about troops names, family trees, which family belongs to whom etc.

Troops linked to Saudi Arabia, are better than troops linked to some were else, we all know that.

I don't agree with your statement "that we left behind", for the Arab it is not left behind it is their center, and it will not be left behind any time soon, because they believe that's their strength....

 

I like Ala email today, specially when he mentioned why we have that hatered to the Kurd....

I'm have Kurd and Half Arab, but let me tell you the truth I'm not proud of my Arab half :-)

 

Salam

Waleed

 

 

 

 

#############################################

 

Here I don't agree with my half cousin:-)

 

Walid,

 

It is not hatred of Arab to Kurds or the other way.. You might know very well that more than forty years ago, Ayatoulah Mohsen Alhakeem, the most prominent Arab religious leader in Iraq through recent history had issued a fatwa denouncing the killing and oppression of Kurds. That was way before daddy Sadam took over and demolishing of Shia .

 

In the the next referendum, kurds have all the right to veto the draft which fail to recognize their self determination right .. I am sure they will not. Are there any reasonable point why they wouldn't other than the real fact that they chose FREELY to live united with all Iraqis with condition of having a free democratic Iraq. Have a look to the preamble of the draft and you might find this very clear statement

 

Now the main question is whether such fail of consideration in the current draft is unconstitutional and non democratic?

 

Many western CIVILIZED democracies with large different communities are lacking such reference..USA Spain , England, even Canada where the French in Quebec are used to go for separation referendum every four years despite the constitution regulation of authorizing the national assembly ONLY to accept such thing.

 

If we accept this for Kurds, then we have to accept it for others. Just Imagine: Turks in Kirkuk and Telaafer want to join Turkey, Kurds want to go alone so as Shia might be , Sunni arab in Anbar might prefer a wahabi state of Suadi, etc.. That would be a state of chaos not a state of democracy

 

As I explained earlier , I am not against such right but should be clear from now.. Tomorrow when we all start to build our beloved Iraq , we need to know if Kurdistan or Arabstan or Shiastan or turkstan are there for long term or not.. We can't plan on temporary state.. Shall i rely on Kirkuk or Basrah oil fields or I consider it temporary? shall we build a highway between Baghdad and Suliamania or consider it as a less priority international one? .. Building a country need a lot of planning and join efforts, this would not happen under temporary situations. I lived in Quebec /Montréal for a while and noticed what such temporary situation might implicate on economy and society.. Montréal used to be the economic capitol of Canada over last hundreds of years , after the new constitution in the seventies that allowing separation, today it is the one of poorest big cities in Canada , most of the business firms had left to Toronto because of fearing of un expected future. Montréal is going more into mono race losing its great tradition of conciliation and open minded culture.

 

Nationalism is a great thing to thought of, but nation building need patriotism too.

 

Have a look to this irony, on same draft text we have two contradictory understandings

 

One thought this draft is a recipe of separation, the other thought it an evil lack of separation right.

 

I think it is neither.. Lacking to mention things doesn't mean denying

 

Lacking them too doesn't mean allowing

 

All left to people to decide.. I think those who wrote this piece of art will be considered as the first engineers of Iraq. A friend of mine wrote me his assessment, he is a nuclear power plants consultant.You might not agree with but I strongly do. Here what we he cnted

So far what I read, the constitution were written in the same style as the Codes and Standards of the Nuclear Power Plants. It does leave some flexibility to the interpreters/designers , yet it is solid to bind people together and hold them responsible for their actions. This is very good to the stability and  progress of the country

 

-Safaa