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Guest Guest_Salim

http://www.aljeeran.net/viewarticle.php?id=22157&pg=index

 

In Arabic

Interesting article , a poll carried over all Iraq with 43000 participant. Showed that 70% of Iraqis don't like the Sharia to be the ONLY source and would like the statement in the current draft. Alnbar Sunni Arab showed the highest among those who requested ISlam as only source at 70% then Najaf Shia Arab at 69%. Kerbala , another Shia Arab is among the highest is rejecting Islam as the ONLy source then Kuridsh Suliamania. Interesting other results regarding Women and fedralism

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One of the most critical ammendements that the media might not focusing on was the control of the water resources.. Kurds where agianst the cetral fedral control and they were pushing for having each autonomous region have it's own way of control. Something that Shia was rejecting as redline. In aspeech to the iraqia Tv, Mr. Shahristani , the nueclear scientistis and assembly deputy head, went to explain that this issue was the real cause of delaying the final draft and not the other minor issues . Yesterday after releasing the final draft, a Shia member said that this issue was resolved in a compromise way but he didn't ellabrate .

What might be unexpected is the stand of the Arab Sunni representatives on this serious issue of getting away the control of the central governemnt from the most important resource in Iraq, WATER! the most valuable resource in future of ME.

 

I think they either were more involved with their short sited agendas or they might found them self inline with Kurds where the main two revirs have to cross thier regions in west Iraq before getting down to the Shia regions of baghdad and the south. !

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Guest hogan

I cannot thank you enough salim. I return to this site regularly in spite of the fact that I cannot read or speak a word of arabic. It is because I learn many things here about what is going on in Iraq that I never find anywhere else. I wish I had more to offer, but Iraqis seem to be doing an unbelievable job at understanding and implementing the foundations for a bright future and I am ignorant about your particular needs.

 

Again, thanks for all the effort to keep English speaking viewer informed. Long live Iraq.

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http://www.nahrain.com/d/news/05/09/17/nhr0917p.html

 

The final draft in Arabic.. Some minor modifications but a critical item added, that is the one related to the Water resources. In Item 107/8. The fedral governemnt is responsible for fair distribution of water enterd Iraq from out side.. That means , the Zab river wil not be included, which starts from withing Kurdistan.

 

Today the assembly is supposed to have the second reading to trigger the printing of 5 milion copy by UN.

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Guest Mustefser

span.org/project/iraq/iraq_wj091605_feldman.rm

 

Mr. Feldman assesment about the draft. Very interesting

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Guest tahir

Gentlemen,

It is obvious that all parties have some vested interest in how things should develop

in Iraq and there are conflicting ideological,social,tribal,economic and the list goes

on reasons that can explain why things are going the way they are.

 

In my humble opinion, If the Iraqi constitution has any chance to succed,

Iraqi's must follow and delibrate systematic approach to define the Iraqi

constitution based on the laws of the human experience.

 

We can start by asking the following question

should there be any role to religon in defining the democratic future of iraq?

 

If No then .....

If yes then , what role should religon play ?

the role should be clearly defined and agreed upon by Cocensus otherwise it will be

meaningless and can not be implemented nor can it be enforced.

 

If there is such a decisive role that can be defined as described above,

who ( persons and groups) should be considered in defining this role ?

 

what is the aceptance criteria for any one or group to represent

whatever ideology,religon,tribe... etc to get involved?

 

WHO will define the acceptance criteria?

 

As you can see this is how all sucessfull systems were defined , established and

then changed by amendments etc. but sucessful societies ( far from perfect)

realized early on that religon has no place in goverment, it better be kept as

such separate.

 

as societies change and their needs are changed , the laws that govern them

change as they are defined by the laws of the land and concensus based on the

human experience.

 

If the laws are heavenly , devine that can not be changed that leads to conflict i.e

applying laws that assume complete obedience and faith in the devine law on

imperfect people who have conflicting faiths and ideologies..

 

I know most of the correspondents agree on teh separation of religon and state

the reality is the controling forces in the iraqi society most likely do not give

a damn about which law and have been playing people on each other's emotions

and fears.

 

I do not thing what is happening in iraq is a religeous conflict , it is a struggle of

power built on years of fear ,

 

and this will not change,till real courageous leaders from all competing parties

emerge and realize that this is a waste of thier energy and a no win situation ,

only then they will realize it is time to compromise and that compromise is not

such a bad idea.

the leaders also must recognize that there are other forces who want the status que to stay

the way it is as they are in control.

 

this is not about philosophy or religon, it is about power, and control gentlmen. ....

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Guest Guest_Safaa

Tahir,

Interesting ACADEMIC approach. Having stick in the ground , let me put my

answers as from my understanding to the current political process in Iraq

which might highlight why I consider the current constitution draft as

revolutionary

 

 

Tahit>should there be any role to religion in defining the democratic

future of Iraq?

If No then .....

Safaa> clearly the draft say NO

 

Tahir> If yes then ,

what role should religion play ?

the role should be clearly defined and agreed upon by Cocensus

otherwise it will bemeaningless and can not be implemented nor can it

be enforced.

Safaa> the draft clearly defined it as one of three "Islamic agreed ahkam

,

democracy, international code of HR". As for consensus , I think we need

to

wait and have a look to the voting results where the three main groups

have

the

full power to reject it if they want to.

 

Tahir> If there is such a decisive role that can be defined as

described above

who ( persons and groups) should be considered in defining this role ?

 

 

Safaa>; If you are referring to the drafting , then it is the elected

assembly which appointed the

writing committee. That what had happened.

On other hand if you mean

exciting such role after the draft gets approved and who will manage

such

authority, the draft put this in the hands of the high court which need

to be

legalized through a special law that the next elected assembly need to

draft.

The main push today in Iraq is to have this court members be nominated

and

voted on by the assembly. Similar to what is going on in US

 

 

 

Tahir>what is the acceptance criteria for any one or group to

represent whatever

ideology,religon,tribe... etc to get involved?

Safaa >; If you mean

the

acceptance for the law, then it is the elected assembly. There is no

such thing

in the draft toward specific representation of any religious , ethnic or

ideology.. I might be missing the question though!

 

 

Tahir>WHO will define the acceptance criteria?

safaa>> all going to the next elected assembly

 

 

Tahir>As you can see this is how all successful systems were

defined , established and

then changed by amendments etc. but successful

societies ( far from perfect)realized early on that

religion has no place in government, it better be kept as

such separate.

 

Safaa>; Yes for those SUCCESSFUL societies who were already developed into a

new

model so that the change became as natural. Something that we might need

to

wait to see in OURS or need to force it as had happened after the fall

of Sadam

regime. I don't know which one is better. Different people might might

have

different answers to

this.

 

Tahir>as societies change and their needs are changed , the laws that

govern them

 

change as they are defined by the laws of the land and concensus based

on the human experience.

Safaa> I can't agree more on this

 

 

Safaa> The draft allow all possible changes , including the islamic role.

 

 

Tahir>I know most of the correspondents agree on the separation of

religon and state

the reality is the controling forces in the iraqi society most

likely do not give a damn about which law and have been playing people

on each other's emotions and fears.

 

 

Safaa> Well I might go differently. Today there

are two parties in Iraq, those who are with the new democratic Iraq and

those

who are not. All what we see on the political map is just a reflection

of such

conflict. Leaders are no longer the one who mobalize people , it is the

people who push leaders into this direction or other. I

mean

both sides of the conflict.

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People still need to be led

 

Powerful Cleric Backs Iraq Constitution

By TAREK EL-TABLAWY, Associated Press Writer

52 minutes ago

 

BAGHDAD, Iraq - The country's most powerful Shiite cleric endorsed the draft constitution Thursday, rejecting opposition voiced by two popular leaders of Iraq's majority sect and underlining a rift also on display in anti-British violence in the southern city of Basra.

 

Two officials in the Shiite Muslim hierarchy in Najaf said Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani called senior aides together and told them to promote a "yes" vote among the faithful during the Oct. 15 national referendum on the constitution.

 

.....

......more at the link

 

Will al-Sistani get the majority Shia to unite with a yes vote ?

It could only unite the country and bring troop reduction talks a real possibility.

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Airedale,

I highly suspect such act by Ayatouylah Systani. In the last ellections there were a lot of such alleged support to this or that group by Systani. All of them turned to be false. The only thing that I personally expect by him is to call people to excerise their free will of accepting or rejecting

 

I think other Ayatoulahs in Najaf will do same. That is in contradict to some Sunni scholars who already announced their rejection to it and call their people to do as such..

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Guest moron99

for whatever it is worth - as an outsider looking in

 

Let me start by saying that it does not matter how good or bad the constitution is. It could be the most profound and important document ever written by human hands. It does not matter. It should fail for the good of the union.

 

Healthy democracy is built upon concensus amoung citizens. You can not get concensus if your brother is absent. Therefore, in the interests of future generations, I think the constitution should fail to pass and the citizens of western Iraq should be given another chance to participate from a fresh start. They were misled and betrayed in the last election. If they fail to vote in the next election then it will be a choice for which they can be held accountable. It would be unwise to build a house upon weak foundations regardless of how quickly you desire the security of a roof.

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I think the next refrundom is the one that we need to rely on , not what I or you or any other think of what is good or bad for people.

Today I see many people reflect their understandings and hopes on what is good. And I think such news about Systani call is to make legitamate for others to force peole to go this way or other.

If we force the voting in any direction , then first we are telling people that there will be no democracy in future, second is that we are no different than any other Arab claimed democracy.

As for Sunni Arabs, I don't think they will vote against it, for sure there some out spoken hard liners who still want this process to stop, but this has nothing to do with main stream. Those who think that Sunni Arb are against it need to have a close look to some Sadamees call to bycote the voting. They know they will not be able to drive the sunni stream agaianst it..

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Guest moron99

if the constitution passes and you can say - "yes, the majority of the sunni voted for it. There was no coercion or cheating - they voted of their own free will and they approved by a clear majority". Then it will be a good thing. If not, then the opposition will use it to cause further divide between brothers.

 

If, on the other hand, a majority of sunni vote for representatives in parliment then the political process becomes a legitimate means to power for all Iraqi groups. From this base, the opposition is weakened and the unification of Iraq becomes an easier task. A constitution drafted from such a parliment can not be used to propagandists to create divisions amoung brothers.

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There is one thing that I disagree, fully agree on others.

Vetoing the constitution wouldn't be to the benifit of those who are against the political process. For them people excerising their will is not a good story, what ever that will is.. What they really affraid about is that having more Sunni Arab joining other Iraqis the joy of such excerise would make it becomes a happit that would destroy any dream of these people comming back to tyranic system. The question in Iraq today is not Sunni against Shia or Kurds against Arab , it is the great battel between tyrany and freedom. This is a long process and can't be matured without having the chance to step through it.

Let them excerise it and I would be more happy to see any thing happen. Though from my personal experience I am not seeing main sunni Arab populus going to veto it. They might have some concerns as all Iraqis do. But not to the extent of veto it. Most Iraqis today would vote for it just for very simple reason, there is no any such better compromise on agreable draft other than this! A lot think that one bird in hand is much better that ten on the tree at a time such tree

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Guest Guest

I think vetoing the constitution would be a crushing blow to the pro-tyrant groups including sadamee, sadrist, and Iranian. At first, they would claim victory but their victory would prove hollow. They do not yet understand democracy and how the will of the people is reflected in the ballots. Both they and many within the current government think that winning an election is a chance to grab power on behalf of their sect. They fail to understand that democracy takes away power as quickly as it gives it.

 

In the act of vetoing, the sunni citizens will prove to themselves that they have significant power under a democracy. This is a good thing for Iraq but a bad thing for those who wish to create an Iraqistan. Then, in january, the sunni would legitimize their power by voting for MPs. As you say, the act of voting is the real enemy of both saddamee and sadrist. The more times people vote, the weaker the saddamees become.

 

I think the sunni will vote very heavily in January elections while the pro-iranians will have less support than they achieved through list 169. Thus, the new parliment would be more balanced and the shia faction would be more secular. Such a parliment would have a far better chance of uniting the Iraqi people and fighting against corruption. Regarding the constitution, the second draft would be born from such a parliment. A Parliment whose predecessor failed to retain power because they failed to bring unity. A parliment whose predecessors drafted a constititution that sought to balance the interests of sectarian leaders first and deliver liberty to the people second. I believe that if a second draft constitution is required, it will focus upon appeassing the voters first and appeassing the sectarian leaders second (the current one is vice-versa). So, in the long run, I think it is better for Iraq to take a fresh start with a new parliment.

 

On the other hand, if the constitution passes, then it is not neccissarily a bad thing. It all depends how certain clauses are interpreted and how many people vote in January. The way I read the draft, setting up courts and interpreting Islamic law will determine whether or not Iraq gets a real democracy.

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