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Baghdadee بغدادي
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Woody1965

Morals in society

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I think Iraq can make a free country. I have faith in you. But I wonder how you will deal with "sin" issues like we have in America?

 

We're free here, and that's great, but sometimes our culture can be very shocking too--very open about sex, pornography, people living together without marriage, movies and music with cursing and sex and violence, etc. We also have religious people who don't like that, and we are always in conflict over it. I'm very much against censorship, but I also understand why some people are offended. I'm not religious now, but I grew up religious (Protestant Christian - Baptist).

 

Do you think conflict over issues like that could destabilize Iraq? I know that some people are very religious and would be quite upset by some things Americans now think of as normal.

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There is no easy answer to this quesiton. The United States hasn't solved it yet, so perhaps Iraqis could do it for us. I for one find myself in a troubled position, as I believe strongly in classical liberal theory(Locke, Jefferson, Madison), while at the same time I recognize as a student of history that too much permissiveness in society leads to decadence. This in turns leads to the corruption of the elites and the eventual downfall of society. This is what doomed the Roman Empire. Sometimes I suspect that "Western Civilization" is heading down the same path.

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I think Iraq can make a free country. I have faith in you. But I wonder how you will deal with "sin" issues like we have in America?

 

We're free here, and that's great, but sometimes our culture can be very shocking too--very open about sex, pornography, people living together without marriage, movies and music with cursing and sex and violence, etc. We also have religious people who don't like that, and we are always in conflict over it. I'm very much against censorship, but I also understand why some people are offended. I'm not religious now, but I grew up religious (Protestant Christian - Baptist).

 

Do you think conflict over issues like that could destabilize Iraq? I know that some people are very religious and would be quite upset by some things Americans now think of as normal.

majority in Iraq choose Islam ,difinitly Iraqies seeking thier fredom,we understand Islam in a diffrent way that the media shows, this is not new in mideval ages, it was shown that muslims belive in a devil has a name of ( MAHON) this is to mention the name of muhamad, today we are terrorist......

Just one question: howmany killed in 1st and 2nd world war ?

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Guest Achillea
Just one question: howmany killed in 1st and 2nd world war  ?

 

World War I casualties -- more than 18 million, including civilians

http://www.humanitas-international.org/sho...ts/ww1stats.htm

ضحايا الحرب العالميّة الأولى - - أكثر من 18 مليون, متضمّنًا مدنيّين

 

World War II casualties -- more than 50 million. Including civilians, not including about 6 million Jews in the Holocaust

http://www.humanitas-international.org/hol...st/ww2stats.htm

ضحايا الحرب العالميّة الثّانية - - أكثر من 50 مليون . متضمّنًا مدنيّين, ليس متضمّنًا حوالي 6 ملايين يهود في المحرقة

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Guest Achillea

Reading this topic, I remembered this article. In it, an immigrant lists ten things he feels are good about America. All of the article is good, but the tenth thing is about virtue. Do Iraqis agree or disagree?

 

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comm...souza070203.asp

 

Sorry for no translation, the page doesn't work right from this computer. I will do it tomorrow.

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I thought they had a good point, with: "Compulsion cannot produce virtue, it can only produce the outward semblance of virtue."

 

The only thing that bothers me is, too many of us don't CHOOSE to be virtuous. I don't know what you can do about it. When I started this thread, I didn't mean to imply that I thought Muslims couldn't handle free society. I just wanted to point out that it's a problem we have in America that we haven't been able to solve.

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Achillia,

The article in the link is very long.. Can you please quote which part you are interested in..I might translate it.

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Guest Achillea

قارئًا هذا الموضوع, تذكّرت هذه القطعة . فيه, مهاجر يحصر عشرة أشياء التي يشعر بها جيّد عن أمريكا . كلّ الأداة جيّدة, لكنّ الشّيء العاشر عن الفضيلة . هل يتّفق عراقيّون أو يختلفون ؟

 

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comm...souza070203.asp

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Guest Achillea
Achillia,

The article in the link is very long.. Can you please quote which part you are interested in..I might translate it.

 

Sure, here you go:

 

America, the freest nation on earth, is also the most virtuous nation on earth.:

This point seems counter-intuitive, given the amount of conspicuous vulgarity, vice, and immorality in America. Indeed some Islamic fundamentalists argue that their regimes are morally superior to the United States because they seek to foster virtue among the citizens. Virtue, these fundamentalists argue, is a higher principle than liberty.

 

Indeed it is. And let us admit that in a free society, freedom will frequently be used badly. Freedom, by definition, includes the freedom to do good or evil, to act nobly or basely. But if freedom brings out the worst in people, it also brings out the best. The millions of Americans who live decent, praiseworthy lives desire our highest admiration because they have opted for the good when the good is not the only available option. Even amidst the temptations of a rich and free society, they have remained on the straight path. Their virtue has special luster because it is freely chosen.

 

By contrast, the societies that many Islamic fundamentalists seek would eliminate the possibility of virtue. If the supply of virtue is insufficient in a free society like America, it is almost non-existent in an unfree society like Iran. The reason is that coerced virtues are not virtues at all. Consider the woman who is required to wear a veil. There is no modesty in this, because she is being compelled Compulsion cannot produce virtue, it can only produce the outward semblance of virtue. Thus a free society like America is not merely more prosperous, more varied, more peaceful, and more tolerant — it is also morally superior to the theocratic and authoritarian regimes that America's enemies advocate.

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Guest Achillea
I thought they had a good point, with: "Compulsion cannot produce virtue, it can only produce the outward semblance of virtue."

 

I agree. That is what made the article stay in my memory.

أتّفق . ذلك هو ما جعل القطعة تبقى في ذاكرتي .

 

The only thing that bothers me is, too many of us don't CHOOSE to be virtuous. I don't know what you can do about it.

 

I agree, to some extent. But that brings up the question -- what is virtue? I am a woman who wears jeans and does not cover her hair or face. To some, that makes me a shameless whore. Who is allowed to decree what virtue is?

 

أتّفق, إلى حدّ ما . لكنّ ذلك يثير المسألة - - ما فضيلة ؟ أنا امرأة تلبس الجينز و لا أغطّي شعرها أو الوجه . إلى البعض الذي يعمل لي عاهرة وقحة . الّذي يُسْمَح أن يقضي ما هي فضيلة ؟

 

When I started this thread, I didn't mean to imply that I thought Muslims couldn't handle free society. I just wanted to point out that it's a problem we have in America that we haven't been able to solve.

 

I did not mean to imply that, either. If I have offended, I apologize. But it makes me think. There is an impression non-Muslims often have of Muslims. It is: If you say something a Muslim disagrees with, he might attack you. Not just with his mouth, but with his fists or even a weapon. He might even be required to by a religious decree. I ask the Muslims here -- is this true? How do you feel about it if it is?

 

لم أقصد دلالة أن, أيضًا . إذا قد أسأت, أعتذر . لكنّه يجعلني أفكّر . هناك انطباع غير مسلمين كثيرًا قد للمسلمين . هو : إذا قلت شيئ ما مسلم يختلف مع, قد يهاجمك . ليس فقط بفمه, لكنّ بقبضاته أو حتّى سلاح . هو قد حتّى يُتَطَلَّب بقرار دينيّ . أسأل المسلمين هنا - - هذا الحقّ ؟ كيف تشعر عنه إذا هو ؟

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Freedom and Democracy allow the community to decide the moral standard. For example, many community councils create laws to prohibit the sale of liquor, restrict or prohibit the sale of beer, types of permissible businesses, etc. Many times the community will vote on a local ballot on such issues. Typically the cities and urban centers are more liberal than the countryside communities, reflecting the majority beliefs of the citizens. But, none can decide a lifestyle for another, except for lawful restrictions decided by the democratic processes. For example, we agree as a society that adults cannot have sex with children and public nudity is not permissible. The Iraqis will decide permissible lawful choices within their own democratic framework. Also, many Americans live honorable, Godly lives, as all are free to do according to their religious and moral beliefs. Did God not give man free will?

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