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Baghdadee بغدادي

Iraq from the butcher to the surgeon


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JThomas,

Their thinking is logical but it may not be connected to reality.

 

You might have a look to

 

http://baghdadee.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=16

 

The problem was not with dismmissing of curropted Saddamees Army whoes high rank officers run away, the problem was not quickly re establishing it.

I see. I didn't understand that was the point of the earlier post.

 

Where would they get officers? All the trained men were Ba'athists and not completely reliable for that.

 

It would make sense to start american-style training right away, and promote the men who seemed to show leadership ability, and keep promoting people and training them for new work as fast as possible. Doing it that way there might be some competent generals by 2015 or so. I don't know why it was so slow to get started.

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http://www.nahrain.com/d/news/04/06/29/nhr0629a.html

 

Inarabic.. an article by an Iraqi from inside Iraq, noticing the great change in security and stability after 48 hrs.. He blame the CPA to be soft with the criminals by following the Americans rules of dealing with suspects.. He claimed that criminals, after delivered by Police or citizens to CAp, they got released .. The problem was that these criminals come back to take revenge from policemen..

I want to point out that you have mentioned two separate issues. There is the issue of how to deal with suspects, and then there is the matter of how long to keep known criminals in jail and how to punish them.

 

The USA has a lot of crime, partly because we demand solid evidence before punishing criminals. But we believe we would do worse if our police could arrest people without evidence.

 

When the US-run prisons released criminals quickly but kept the ones suspected of anti-US action indefinitely, it was clearly bad. That was enough to cause a whole lot of extra crime right there. I hope you will try out the idea of giving suspected criminals a fair trial. It has some very good effects, if the amount of crime is low enough that you can afford to do it.

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Doing it that way there might be some competent generals by 2015 or so. I don't know why it was so slow to get started.

 

I assume I might know the answer to this..

On one hand , it is not to best Americans benifits to have earlier an competent Iraqi Army that is capabale of dealing with the major Iraqi security issues, something that might not comply with the Americans agendas. Second , the Americans aren't willing to open the doors for all those Iraqis who fought Saddam to take over the Army, such as Bader Army, INC , Alwaee , Mehdi and Kurds militia..

 

I agree with that policy though.. From one aspect having these militia men sooner in the Army might creat later a simmilar problem as the one with keeping the Saddam officers, on the other hand, having earlier Strong army that deals with security might creat a civil war later on..

I think what had happened , though very costly on both coalition and Iraq people , didn't lack some benefits..

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http://www.elaph.com.:9090/elaph/arabic/fr...615911163197100

 

In Arabic.. This is a very serious and bazar.. The report from Baghdad, talking about a clash between the Americans and Iraqi police.. The reporter claimed that the Americans had sieged a police station and tried to release e the criminals who were captured two days ago in Batween/Baghdad.. The reason is that they had badly treated by Iraqi police, that is based on a report by some Baathee officer who had good relations with the old CPA.. The clash ended after another American unit got involved, and the first one withdraw from the station..

 

This is sending a very very bad message to Iraqis who finally feel that the new police is taking care of criminals.. Any comment.. Any one know about the details..?

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1250526,00.html

Same story in english.

 

I can't say more about what happened than the link says. But I can say about the meaning.

 

Americans have been strongly opposed to torture. We have always pretended that our government does not do it. When there is evidence that a criminal suspect has been tortured his confession is not allowed in court, and any evidence that is known to have come from torture is not allowed in his trial. Our military gets no training in torture, instead they are taught about what they may face if they are captured by the enemy. One of the big things that persuaded americans that Saddam was such a bad guy was his torturing prisoners and particularly the awful stories of how he tortured prisoners to death. And this is why the Abu Graib photos were so hard for us, because they showed our own people doing what we say they never do.

 

We also believe that we never start wars, we only hit back at others who start wars. In every big war we have started we always had some reason to think the other side had already started it. When we took cuba from spain it was after a US warship blew up there and we thought maybe the spanish blew it up. When we invaded mexico we had the lie that the mexicans had attacked the USA first. We have sometimes invaded very small countries without a story like that, but only countries we could defeat very quickly and without much notice in the USA. This is the first time we have ever invaded a large nation that had not first attacked the USA or an ally, not counting Afghanistan where they refused to give us bin Laden.

 

So we found excuses to invade. One was that Saddam almost had WMDs that would be a direct threat to the USA. But he didn't. Another was that he was an important helper for al qaeda. But he wasn't. Then there was the idea that we could make iraq become democratic, and also that we got rid of Saddam who tortured. The two big slogans were "He gassed his own people!" and "He tortured people, he had rape rooms!"

 

We got disgusted about Abu Graib. We could easily get disgusted with the iraqi government for doing torture. If Kerry gets elected, and if Allawi makes a fake democracy with a secret police that reports to him and opposition leaders jailed and people afraid to talk on the streets, Kerry is likely to bring the american troops home and stop paying for reconstruction. Or possibly take over again and make another try at imposing democracy. But more likely pull out.

 

We set up an 8 week course for iraqi police, and one whole week of that is about how to give suspects their rights. I can understand that the police don't like it. American police don't like it either. American police would rather just punish the ones they think are guilty. And the iraqi public is sick of having so much crime. I would hope you can try out the ideas about rights for suspects who haven't been proven to be criminals. It would have been better if the US military had treated people that way so you could see it in action. Another lost opportunity. A lot of people get arrested who turn out did not do the crimes they were accused of, and it is better that they get treated fairly. Someday it could happen to you. But I can understand that you would feel like it is impractical when you need to stop the criminals.

 

One thing that might help smooth this issue over between americans and iraqis is to tell us that you do not beat people to get confessions, or to get information about other criminals, but only as punishment. We officially do not beat our criminals. (Guards beat prisoners who do not do what the guards tell them, but we pretend it does not happen, and when it does happen we say that it was a bad guard. Good guards get prisoners to cooperate without beating them.) We could understand it somewhat better as a punishment. We have laws that we cannot do "cruel or unusual punishment" but if it is not unusual in iraq, if it's just how you punish people, we could start to understand it. Particularly when it is a substitute for a long prison term. We have far too many people in prison in our country because we do not have other punishments. If some iraqi had a clear explanation why beatings are good punishment we might understand. But we would not understand confession-torture or interrogation-torture. We would feel like our last excuse for the war was gone.

 

This is important not because the US army needs to stay in iraq. I doubt that any of your neighbors will invade any time soon, and if it turns out that you are about to have a civil war we might not be good at stopping it. Maybe it would be good for the US army to leave except for the ones who train the iraqi army. I don't know. But the CPA has spent almost all of your money instead of spending the money the US Congress gave them to spend for you. If the USA gets mad at you then the american money will never get spent. You will have to depend on foreign charity.

 

I can only guess about that. The best guess I have heard is that you will need about 30 billion dollars a year, and the first year you might get 20 billion dollars from oil exports provided the CPA hasn't already sold that oil and provided the price stays high. Maybe you could break contracts worth another 5 billion dollars or so, and it would take years to get it established whether you need to pay. That leaves only five billion dollars or so to borrow from friends or do without, or maybe $25 billion if the oil is sold in advance and you can't repudiate the sale. Europe needs you to provide a *stable* oil supply, and might give aid and forgive loans in the hope you could do that. But it may be easier to get the money from the USA, particularly if we aren't too disgusted about the whole thing.

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Guest Guest_tajer
Nashwan Ali - who said his nickname was Big Man - said: "A US MP asked me this morning what police division I was in. I said I was in criminal intelligence.

 

"The American asked me why we had beaten the prisoners. I said we beat the prisoners because they are all bad people. But I told him we didn't strip them naked, photograph them or fuck them like you did."

 

 

Would the Americans please leave Iraqis doing the job the way they know..

Americans should know that this is a real sovirin country.. This shouldn't be allowed again and those responsible for the police station raid should be procsecuted..

If there is such abuse concerns to suspects , it should be reported through the legal channels, not just jump in on the police station.. It will send a very bad message to both the police personalls and the criminals..

I would like to ask: in USA ,if some one reported such abuse by FBI , is it expected that some other agencies would raid the FBI

 

This is serious and should not be excused..

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Guest Damn_Proud_American

<em>If there is such abuse concerns to suspects , it should be reported through the legal channels, not just jump in on the police station.. It will send a very bad message to both the police personalls and the criminals..

I would like to ask: in USA ,if some one reported such abuse by FBI , is it expected that some other agencies would raid the FBI

 

This is serious and should not be excused.. </em>

 

I agree this shouldn't have happened. It's no longer our direct concern and we must give the new gov't the leeway it needs to function and prove itself. That being said you will definitily NOT see prosecutions of american soldiers for this raid. They made a mistake and will be told not to do it again, but that's about it.

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Nashwan Ali - who said his nickname was Big Man - said: "A US MP asked me this morning what police division I was in. I said I was in criminal intelligence.

 

"The American asked me why we had beaten the prisoners. I said we beat the prisoners because they are all bad people. But I told him we didn't strip them naked, photograph them or fuck them like you did."

 

 

Would the Americans please leave Iraqis doing the job the way they know..

This is an embarrassment. Americans justified the war by believing you would do things our way. We believe that it is wrong to beat somebody because he is a bad person until after he has had a fair trial that proves he has committed a crime that deserves such punishment. Our own police make a lot of mistakes and we do not trust them to decide who is bad and beat them before the trial.

 

If I read the report right, these iraqi policemen were beating suspects in front of TV cameras. That will make people in USA think we have failed, that you are doing things wrong. Many of us think that everybody would share our ideals if they had the chance. This is of course wrong, but we think it and we will be shocked to see otherwise. The phrase is "innocent until proven guilty". People can be held until their trial if the judge does not trust them to come back for the trial. But they must not be punished until after they are proven guilty to the satisfaction of the judge and maybe a jury. When iraqi police beat suspects in front of TV cameras it shows they are not ashamed. And they are not ashamed, the iraqi public approves. This will be hard for americans to deal with.

 

Americans should know that this is a real sovirin country.. This shouldn't  be allowed again and those responsible for the police station raid should be procsecuted..

 

I can understand you feeling that way. The americans assumed you would wind up with a legal system like ours. Looking back I don't know why we assumed that, but I think we all did. I did myself. I am sure the american who started the confrontation thought the iraqi police were doing something very wrong. It was opposed to all the training we gave iraqi police.

 

Many iraqi police haven't had the american training, and I suppose you will set up iraqi training instead and do it your own way. If you want to change the system, right now is the best time to think about how it should be. You might find some good things to take from the american system, and other systems. One rule that has worked for us is that our police are not allowed to imprison legislators who are heading to the assembly. They can arrest them for crimes and tell them they must go to court later, but they cannot legally keep an elected official from going to his assembly no matter what the crime.

 

If there is such abuse concerns to suspects , it should be reported  through the legal channels, not just jump in on the police station.. It will send  a very bad message to both the police personalls and the criminals..

I would like to ask: in USA ,if some one reported such abuse by FBI , is it expected that some other agencies would raid the FBI

 

Sometimes, yes. When the other agency is committing a crime, it might happen both to gather evidence and to interrupt the crime. They had better be right. If they raid another agency and do not find the crime then they are in trouble. Again this is a cultural embarrassment. To people from the USA what the iraqi police were doing looks like a crime, but to iraqis it looks like correct behavior. The americans would have stopped the beatings if they could. We knew about the difference but we assumed that you would do things our way once you could. I expect the americans didn't even try much to persuade you that our way was better. We just assumed you put up with your way because Saddam made you do it, and that you would be like us as soon as you had the chance. And since we were controlling everything the iraqis were mostly too polite to tell us otherwise. Now that you are telling us the truth we should expect to be shocked sometimes.

 

This is serious and should not be excused..

 

It is a new situation and I hope you will forgive americans who make some mistakes. We are trying to go from being the bosses to being partners, and when we were the boss we did not learn what you wanted because we did not need to -- then. Maybe the partnership will be too difficult and you will tell us to go away. I hope iraq will prosper either way.

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Guest Guest_tajer

I think the issue is not the incident by itself but the way they had delt with.. Please don't understand me wrong..

What I tried to say that this is a new formed institution and we need to support and nurture it to the extreem limit..

If the soldiers have families get killed every day in the streets of Baghdad, they might think differently..

Iraqis today are putting all their hopes in those brave police men and women who are standing bare hands in front of terror.. Let me explain somthing .. Before this war, Iraqis had never look to police UP.. We used to call theifs "Shurti", as the one who is easily bribed.. The system was so currupted.. After the war , , people start to look differently to the police, especially with all their sacrifices..

 

I don't know how to believe that the turture was in front of the Aljezera.. Indeed three of Aljezera reporters were caputred dealing with the criminals.. And the Americans were comming to release them.. At least that what the Iraqi police had told in the arabic article.. I would go with their report becuase the other higer rank American unit had ordered the first one to leave.. That would mean that their is some chaiotic situation..

 

I agree with you that it is a new partnership relation, and we need to pay more attention.. Small things might matter

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http://www.alrafidayn.com/Story/News/N_06_07_04_28.html

 

In arabic.. The well respected Baghdad university/marketing and consumer reaserch center, published a recent poll resuls about Iraqis opinion

 

89% will to cooperate with the new govenment

84% think that full soverignty will be acheived with elected government

54% accepting kind of Martial law

 

 

 

استطلاع مركز بحوث السوق وحماية ‏المستهلك في جامعة بغداد

89 فى المئة من العراقيين يرغبون في التعاون مع الحكومة العراقية الحالية ‏

 

‏ بغداد - اظهر استطلاع للراي اجراه مركز بحوث السوق وحماية ‏المستهلك في جامعة بغداد ان 89 بالمئة من العراقيين يرغبون بالتعاون مع الحكومة ‏العراقية ودعمها لبناء العراق واعادة اعماره.‏   

 

‏ ورأى 84 بالمئة ان السيادة تتحقق بحكومة منتخبة فيما أبدى 10 بالمئة من العينة ‏  ترددا في الاجابة.‏   

 

‏ ووافق اكثر من 54 بالمئة في الاستطلاع الذي اجري على فئات واسعة من المواطنين ‏  على اعتماد قانون الطوارئ وحظر التجول لضبط الامن وتوفير الاستقرار فيما وافق 29 ‏   

 

‏بالمئة على فرض القانون بشيء من التحفظ.‏   

 

‏ وجاء فى نتائج الاستطلاع ان 88 بالمئة وعلى الرغم من تباين الاراء رحبوا ‏ بالحكومة الجديدة وانبثاقها في الثامن والعشرين من يونيو قبل يومين من الموعد ‏المقرر في قرار مجلس الامن 1546. ‏   

 

‏ وقالت عينات الاستطلاع انها ستتمسك بالقانون وتعيره احتراما اكبر اذا كان في ‏أيد عراقية اذ أعرب 89 بالمئة منهم ان يكون الامن والقانون تحت رعاية عراقية ‏ خالصة.‏   

 

‏ ويثق 72 بالمئة من العراقيين بأن حكومة الدكتور أياد علاوي جادة باعادة ‏الاعمار والنهوض باقتصاد العراق فيما شكك 27 بالمئة منهم بهذه القدرة لكن نسبة ‏العراقيين الذين يوءيدون قدرة حكومة علاوي على الطلب من القوات الاجنبية مغادرة ‏العراق انخفضت الى 24 بالمئة وقال 53 بالمئة منهم ان الحكومة الجديدة غير قادرة.‏   

 

‏وفي الجانب الامني تحفظ العراقيون على قدرة الشرطة العراقية في حفظ الامن اذ ‏ قال 31 بالمئة انها لاتستطيع وقال 61 بالمئة انها تستطيع نوعا ما وتتشابه هذه ‏النسبة مع نسبة العراقيين الذين يؤمنون بأن الحكومة الجديدة تستطيع احكام سيطرتها على الحدود.‏   

 

‏ ويخلص الاستطلاع الى تقدير ان 4ر55 بالمئة من العراقيين متفائلون بمستقبل ‏العراق وبقدرة الحكومة الجديدة على تحقيق متطلبات السيادة ومستقبل الوطن.‏   

 

‏ واشارت نتائج هذا الاستطلاع الى ان المواطنين اجابوا على الاسئلة بواقعية ‏وتفاؤل ورؤية سديدة.‏   

 

‏ يذكر ان هذا الاستطلاع هو الثاني الذي ينظمه هذا المركز في محاولة لما وصفه ‏‏المركز بمراقبة هواجس الشعب وقراءة أفكاره وتطلعاته وآماله ومدى انسجامه مع ‏الحكومة الجديدة أم لا.‏   

 

‏ كما يظهر الاستطلاع ان الاجراءات لانشاء الحكومة العراقية المتمثلة بحكومة ‏ أياد علاوي هي اجراءات صحيحة يدرك العراقيون أنها أعطت ثمارا ناجحة

 

الرافدين

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http://www.nahrain.com/d/news/04/07/07/nhr0707b.html

 

 

In the Name of Allah, the Most Compassionate and the Most Merciful.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Republic of Iraq

 

Office of the Prime Minister

 

 

 

Order of Safeguarding National Security

 

Number (    ) for the Year 2004

 

 

 

In the name of the people.

 

 

 

According to the provisions of Section 2 of the Transitional Administrative Law Annex, and according to the provisions of Article 25 of the above mentioned law, and consistent with the provisions of Chapter two of this law, we promulgate the following order.

 

 

 

Article one

 

 

 

The Prime Minister, with the unanimous approval of the Presidency Council, may declare a state of emergency in any part of Iraq upon the exposure of the people of Iraq to a danger of grave proportions, threatening the lives of individuals and emanating from an ongoing campaign of violence by any number of people, for the purpose of preventing the establishment of a broad based government in Iraq, or to hinder the peaceful participation of

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.nahrain.com/d/news/04/07/07/nhr0707a.html

In Arabic

 

 

 

    جمهورية العراق REPUBLIC OF IRAQ                                   

 

      ديوان رئاسة الجمهورية    PRIME MINISTER’S OFFICE                             

 

أمــــــر

 

الدفاع عن السلامة الو طنية رقم (      ) لسنة 2004

 

 

 

باسم الشعب

 

استناداً الى احكام القسم الثاني من ملحق قانون ادارة الدولة العراقية للفترة الانتقالية، واحكام المادة (25) من القانون اعلاه، وبالتوافق مع احكام الباب الثاني من هذا القانون اصدرنا هذا الامر:

 

 

 

المادة - ا-

 

لرئيس الوزراء، بعد موافقة هيئة الرئاسة بالاجماع، إعلان حالة الطوارئ في أية منطقة من العراق، عند تعرض الشعب العراقي لخطر حال جسيم يهدد الافراد في حياتهم، وناشئ من حملة مستمرة للعنف، من اي عدد من الاشخاص لمنع تشكيل حكومة واسعة التمثيل في العراق او تعطيل المشاركة السياسية السلمية لكل العراقيين او اي غرض آخر.

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http://www.nahrain.com/d/news/04/07/08/nhr0708h.html

 

Inarabic.. Aletter from an Iraqi about the fighting in Hafa street in Baghdad..

While an Iraqi unit was searching for criminal band in the area, it seems that some Arabs were hiding in one of the residential units,. they thought that that the Iraqi unit was comming to them, they started firing on the unit killing 4 personalls.. theyn the Iraqis called more units and sieged the area .. Capturing 20 Arabs terrorists and killing others.

 

This story was confirmed by local Iraqis in baghdad.. the question is why the American media kept talking about the killing on the Iraqi side only?

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http://www.elaph.com.:9090/elaph/arabic/index.html

 

Inarabic , recent poll on 350 participants from different cities, shows that

81% agree with the stronger measures by the new government

67% agree with martial laws as a a way to solve the cureent security situation

98% condemed the attacks on policemen.

66% wil elect no party-member for the national council.

 

اظهر احدث استطلاع للرأي اجري في العراق ان 81 بالمائة من العراقيين يؤيدون استخدام القوة لمعالجة الملف الامني فيما وافق 67 % منهم على فرض الاحكام العرفية وقال 86% ان العمل بحكم الاعدام سيحد من الجريمة فيما رفض 56% توزيع المناصب العليا في الدولة على اساس طائفي وعرقي واعتبر 98% الهجمات على رجال الشرطة اعمالا تخريبية . 

جاء ذلك في نتائج استطلاع للرأي أجراه مركز "فكري" التابع لمعهد العراق للديمقراطية بالتعاون مع التجمع الثقافي في بغداد ستنشرها صحيفة "الاهالي" البغدادية غدا شارك فيه 367 مواطنا في عدد من المدن العراقية ويشير ايضا الى ان 48% لايؤيدون منح اعضاء مجلس الحكم المنحل مقاعد في المجلس الوطني المنتظر وفضل 47% منهم البقاء في العراق حتى لو سمحت لهم الفرصة بمغادرته فيما قال 39% ان دمج المليشيات المسلحة بالجيش النظامي سيشكل حلا لمشكلتها .

ويأتي نشر نتائج الاستطلاع في وقت تشن فيه الشرطة العراقية منذ يومين حملة مداهمات في عدد من المدن العراقية في مقدمتها العاصمة بغداد لتفكيك شبكات الجريمة المنظمة المسؤولة عن عمليات اغتصاب وقتل واختطاف وسرقة وترويج المخدرات حيث اعتقلت حتى الان حوالي 600 فرد من عناصرها .

واشار الاستطلاع الى ان 82% من الذين شاركوا فيه يعتقدون ان المواجهة التي اعتمدها جيش المهدي باعتبارها مقاومة للاحتلال  فشلت وقال 74% انهم لم يلمسوا شيئا من عمليات الاعمار التي يعلن عنها التحالف والحكومة العراقية . وفضل 66% ترشيح مستقلين للانتخابات البرلمانية وقال 44% ان عملية اجتثاث البعث غير مؤثرة وتتسم بالفوضى وعبر 76% عن اعتقادهم بان عملية اجتثاث البعث لم تحقق اهدافها .

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http://www.iraq.net/displayarticle4750.html

 

Ayatollah Ali Khamenei also described terrorism as a "loathsome, horrible" and said fighting it was "of great importance."

 

In comments made during a meeting with visiting Singaporean Prime Minister of Singapore Goh Chok Tong, 

Khamenei said: "We seriously suspect the agents of the Americans and Israelis in conducting such horrendous terrorist acts and cannot believe the people who kidnap Philippines nationals, for instance, or behead U.S. nationals are Muslims."

 

 

The state-run agency, which carried Khamenei's comments, did not elaborate on his remarks.

 

Indeed what Khamanaei was talking about is a replica to most what I had heard recently from inside Iraq.. Some who I had talked to recently, had told me that Zarqawee is not but an Isreali agent, been prepared while spening some time in Jordanian jails couble of years ago..

They however fail to explain how it is possible that the terrorists are Killing US solders in addition to killing Iraqis..One of the Arab Kuwaitee wesites , commented on the above as a nonsense though!

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InArabic.. The speach by PM Alwaee to Iraqi people.. He said that he is confident od defeating the terrorists.. When I looked to the speach , I realized the dreat difference that we Iraqis had went through.. When compared to the normal "Sacred" speaches by Arab leaders , I can tell that Iraq is now different.. It is a cevilized one.. PM is sharing in a very direct way , his problems and hopes.. Theirs!

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