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Why do the Americans liberate Iraqis and occ

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Guest Mary

This has been an interesting discussion. I don't live in Iraq or America, I live in New Zealand, and our government, backed by most of the population, were against the American invasion of Iraq. Our concerns were most clearly articulated in regard to the precedent set by America in bypassing the United Nations Security Council. As a small and relatively powerless nation, we found this very distressing. We saw the UN as more powerful than any nation alone, and we would be more comfortable if we could continue to believe that.

 

However, what many of us also fail to see is the mechanism whereby invasion solves the problem. Removal of a dictator does not inevitably lead to peaceful self-government. The journey from totalitarian state to participatory democracy is not exactly a well-travelled road that is widely understood, and I'm not sure that we have strong evidence that foreign guns hasten a nation on this journey?! The struggle is to discover and enable the moderate voices in a troubled nation, not easy in the face of dictatorship, nor in war, nor in the unpredictable unrest that troubles Iraq today.

 

It is time that the non-military aspects of facilitating democratic change were better researched and understood, because nations like Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq have suffered too much unrest and uncertainty for too long after Western nations have used warlike means to try and "help" them. There must be a better way to "win the peace", whether winning a war is part of the equation or not.

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We saw the UN as more powerful than any nation alone, and we would be more comfortable if we could continue to believe that.

 

I would say that the moral authority a governing body is equal to that of it's members. The UN as it is currently structured gives the same credence to a dictator as they do to a freely elected govt. It is obvious that some of the member states in the security council was more concerned about their financial dealings with Iraq than they were with seeing Saddam dealt with. It is also clear that the United States would bear the brunt of whatever action Saddam & the terrorists would take in the future. So it was in OUR best interest to remove him regardless of what the UN's position was. The UN as it exists today is pretty dysfunctional.

 

Now to your question;

However, what many of us also fail to see is the mechanism whereby invasion solves the problem. Removal of a dictator does not inevitably lead to peaceful self-government. The journey from totalitarian state to participatory democracy is not exactly a well-traveled road that is widely understood, and I'm not sure that we have strong evidence that foreign guns hasten a nation on this journey?!

 

Invasion certainly solves the problem of the present regime retaining power! Removal does not inevitably lead to peaceful self govt. That is why we are pushing so hard to get a Constitution in place for Iraq so they have a road map to guide them there. I don't think we have any evidence since the French revolution in 1790 of a country overthrowing a tyrannical govt and replacing it with democracy without an outside force of arms. Some may argue S. Africa was but that was more an exchange of democracies.

 

 

It is time that the non-military aspects of facilitating democratic change were better researched and understood, because nations like Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq have suffered too much unrest and uncertainty for too long after Western nations have used warlike means to try and "help" them. There must be a better way to "win the peace", whether winning a war is part of the equation or not.

 

There has not been one case in the history of man where a dictator has voluntarily given up power to the people. There has been blockades, isolation in both trade and diplomacy that has stretched on in some cases for over 30 years. That is an entire generation that has suffered from both the sanctions and the dictator. Is it not more merciful if upon determining that the ruler is so damaging to the people that he/she is unfit to rule that they be given a chance to step down and if they refuse they are removed by force immediately?

 

Look at your examples, Korea, Do you think that the South Koreans would rather be united if united meant living like the North? Vietnam In another 20 years may be just like south Korea. Do you think China's road in the 20th Century was any easier and they had much less Western intrusion?Afghanistan, It's way too early to determine what the total impact of things there will be but the problem certainly started as a regional conflict with Russia and the vacume that was created when they left.

 

What we really need to do in the developed world is find a way to curb opportunism in arms AND technology dealers. The flow of dangerous technology must be controlled and it is in the long term best interest of everyone to do this. The United is as guilty of this as anyone but no more so. It's time to stop pointing fingers and simply demand of each other that we do a better job of policing our own.

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The reason the United States invaded Iraq and took out the former Dictator was because we need to reshape the Middle East for our own protection. The attack of 9/11 happened because we failed to respond to all the attacks before that. We are not a war mongering nation, we would rather not fight anybody. You must understand that to understand how high the threshhold is to ignite our anger. Saddam was dangerous. Taking him out and establishing a functioning democracy in the middle of a tyrant infested area sends some clear messages from the US.

 

1. Our patience is at an end and we will now use whatever means we have to protect ourselves.

2. If you are our friend, we can work together to build strong economies and lasting relationships, if you choose to be our enemy, we will hit you hard.

3. We will not subordinate our own security to any other nation or group of nations especially those who can demonstrate no moral authority over us.

4. Syria, Iran, and North Korea are clearly in our sights now and one way or another we will protect ourselves from them as well.

 

and most important of all - - -

 

5. We can do it!!!

 

We no longer care if others think we are arrogant. That bothered us prior to 9/11, it does not bother us any longer. If the 9/11 attack had not occured, Saddam would still be in power and we would have no interest in fighting with any other country.

 

To put it very bluntly, Most Americans are thoroughly pissed off and we want someone to thank us for our gifts to the world not seek creative ways to kill us. We are not wealthy because we steal from others, we are wealthy because we are free. God gave us and everyone else that same freedom. It is only when man and governments take freedom away from individuals that poverty ensues.

 

These are the meager mumblings of a middle-aged American from Fort Wayne, Indiana. I hope they can help to partially answer the question why we liberated Iraq.

 

John Smith

Fort Wayne, Indiana

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Guest P@
????? "???" ????????? ????????? ????????? ??????Why do the Americans liberate Iraqis and occupy Iraq?

.

 

???? ???? ?????? ???????" ???? ????????" ???? ??? ???? . ?????? ?????? ?? ??? ?????? ?? ?????? .

???????? ???? ?????? ?????

 

???????? ???? ?????? ?????

http://www.geocities.com/baghdadeeblog/Why...atIraqisWin.htm

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nteresting article by the Iraqi writer Basim Almustaar.

The writer is discussing the reasons behind Liberation/Occupation issue of Iraq..

It is bilang, to continue pree the link below

http://www.geocities.com/baghdadeeblog/Why...atIraqisWin.htm

Why do the Americans liberate

Good Questions. As Americans, many of us are asking the same things. Why make such sacrifices when it seems many Iraqis would have much preferred to remain under the dictatorship of Sadam Hussein.

 

However, I think the answer lies in our history. Look toward any of the countries the United States has intervened in throughout its history, and, unlike most countries throughout history, America has never kept the territory it's conquered. Even though the rules of war allow it.

 

Instead, look at countries like Japan, France, Germany, Yugoslavia, Kosovo. All conquered by the U.S., but all enjoying Democracy and autonomy. And now even Afghanistan has ratified its constitution, giving its people equality and freedoms Iraqis never imagined possible.

 

And while, true, each of the Nations listed above are considerred allies by the U.S., they are far from being puppets. Just look to the universal opposition to the U.S.'s intervention in Iraq as proof.

 

I think it's understandable Iraqis are asking "what's the catch?" Especially coming from a region where war is waged by lobbing scud missiles at an enemies population centers, anexing ones neighbors is commonplace, and poison gas is used as a weapon to pacify resistance at home.

 

Obviously Iraqis are used to different rules.

 

To us Americans, an equally perplexing question to yours is why would the Iraqi people, or the majority of Arabs, for that matter, be so resistant to democracy? A government that's answerable to the will of its people seems like it would be an obvious choice. But so many seem so willing to fight to have their life be ruled by a despot, it's beyond understanding.

 

This is the question I'd like answered.

 

P@

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P

 

when it seems many Iraqis would have much preferred to remain under the dictatorship of Sadam Hussein.

 

 

To us Americans, an equally perplexing question to yours is why would the Iraqi people, or the majority of Arabs, for that matter, be so resistant to democracy?

 

I am wondering if you know anything about Iraq..?

That is the most strange conclusion ever I run into..! Even Aljezera and BBC don't dare to ask!

You might need to go through Iraqi blogs listening for people talking from inside Iraq to get rid of the main stream media brain wash..

 

I think this site is a good start, if you realy want the answer/wash .. Have fun!

 

اتسال اذا كنت تعرف اي شئ عن العراق؟

انه اغرب استنتاج سمعته لحد الان! حتى الجزيره واذاعه لندن لاتجرأن على سؤاله!

ربما تحتاج الى الاطلاع على بلوكات العراقيين الذين يكتبون من داخل العراق للتخلص من غسيل الدماغ الذي تتعرض له من قبل الاوساط الاعلاميه الرئيسيه.

اعتقد ان هذا الموقع يصلح كبدايه, اذا كنت فعلا ترغب في الاجابه.. تمتع بالموقع

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Salim's right, P@. Spend some time finding out what Iraqis are saying--insider Iraqis. Talking to the Iraqis you get a completely different picture of what's going on there than you get from the media here in the U.S.

 

Unfortunately, Salim, I've heard quite a few people say things very much like that. It's part of a lot of political rhetoric here. If you just watch a little news here and there in America, you can easily get that impression, because most of the media here doesn't like Bush, and they want us to think our soldiers are fighting to free people who don't want to be free. They think it will make Americans force the military to withdraw immediately. It's not going to work. The news might make some Americans think things are going badly over there, but even so, Americans will want the mission completed.

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Hello All .. I too am most perplexed as to what is happening in Iraq now. While gathering most of my information on the net, my preferred mode of learning is from the Iraqi bloggers and I've been reading them faithfully; As many as I can each day, to try to get a more clear picture of what people there in the midst of it all are thinking. Before the capture of SH and the demise of his sons, I thought I fully understood the reluctance of the Iraqi people to participate in their own march to freedom. With Saddam and sons gone, thus the fear of retribution, it amazes me that the "street" is not hustling hard and fast to get their country back, up and running and cooperating with the US to get things fixed and working ASAP, thus accomplishing their wish to get us (the US) out of their country faster. We have no desire to stay in-country, but won't too swift a withdrawal throw the country into civil war, as many Iraqis have said? I'm also wondering, is the "bottom line" as we call it here in the USA (the almighty dollar) really the thing that counts? An ice cream vendor was complaining on tv recently that although his business was booming more than ever before, before SH he could stay open until Midnight; now with the insecurity, he is only able to stay open until 9pm. Well .. hmm .. does the fact that his family is now safe from execution and torture not mitigate this 3 hour difference? Why do not the Iraqis help in droves in ridding the country of the "insurgents" causing this insecurity? I'm afraid it is very confusing for me but I have confidence that my Iraqi blogger friends will continue to help me understand. Thank you all for your input! What a gift it is to be able to communicate during this time of difficulty. This is truly marvelous towards helping all peoples of the world understand each other.

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Guest Achillea
An ice cream vendor was complaining on tv recently

 

Betsy, not to slight the rest of your post, but this is what leapt out at me. As Salim indicated above, the media <i>is not</i> giving an accurate picture of what's really going on in Iraq. Al-Jazeera you expect it of, but the BBC and CNN especially have been focussing almost entirely on the negative. Charitable souls will give them a pass on the basis that 'good news is boring.' I'll grant that, though I believe there's some bias involved, as well. I've given up on TV for anything but local news. Living in Los Angeles, this means I've become an expert on car chases. :P

 

You mentioned you read the Iraqi bloggers extensively. That's definitely the way to go. I even read Riverbend (though I take her with a large dose of salt, since she seems to get her own information largely from Al-Jazeera and the BBC).

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Hi Achillea. You are definitely correct about the news via tv or newspaper. Every one has an "agenda" and the reporting of good old fashioned news without bias or slant has gone by the wayside. Rarely do the media offerings get any credence from me; yet this ice cream vendor incident jumped out at *me* just because it seemed so silly. Iraqi bloggers and military bloggers are not only accurate but very insightful as to what's really going down (annnd, my son is in the AF, flying C-130's out of Doha. He recently flew supplies into Iran) as are several friends in Iraq. It does seem to depend where you are, as well. Some cities are doing very well and are attack free while others are not doing well at all. I have friends on the "pessimistic" side of this discussion and like to give them a "positive" reply from the Iraq point of view. I fear if there is no turnaround soon the US will be in big trouble as the population while staunchly behind Iraq, is getting weary of the daily slaughter of our military. Thank you again!

:unsure:

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Betsy, one of the Iraqi bloggers http://messopotamian.blogspot.com/ had a theory about the security situation that makes a lot of sense to me. He expects violence in Baghdad to worsen in the short term precisely because coalition efforts to crack down on insurgents in the Sunni Triangle have been largely effective. Insurgents that weren't killed or captured in the country have had to escape. And because there aren't a lot of mountains, forests, etc., the only place to really hide is Baghdad. So, the ice cream vendor and the coalition probably have reason to be flustered right now. Things will be better in the long term, but right now, Baghdad is getting the worst of it.

 

And the media is mostly hunkered down in Baghdad--another reason why, apart from bias, that their reports are generally negative. They're not seeing the places in the country where things are more secure.

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Hello Woody. Yes, the Mesopotamian is a fav blog as is Iraq The Model. Mohammed today wrote an excellent blog with regard to my doubts and questions. It makes me wonder as well why we don't have a strong radio or tv station broadcasting the positives going on in the country so as to help the people understand more of what is going on all over. And Achillea, I have trouble with Riverbend as she is so negative, but her recipe section is good! ;) So is the food one here. My hub and I are newly to NC from Chicago and the local news down here is .. um, different but the football team is better!

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I remember the lessons of America’s involvement in Latin America and the possibility of representational government came IN SPITE OF THE UNITED STATES INVOLVEMENT. The United States is better at supporting authoritarian regimes that use Death Squads to enforce democracy. The same will happen in Iraq.

 

The reason many in the world do not trust the more conservative elements within it's government is because of their past.

 

"We watch the American government be friends with this dictator over

here and support him, because he will give you the oil or minerals

or something that you want," one person stood up to say. "But then

with this other dictator over there, who is not so friendly and

cooperative, you will start talking about democracy just so you can

get rid of him. This is so hypocritical, to use democracy this way,

like a weapon. Do Americans think that the world does not understand

what it is you are doing?"

 

-snip-

 

"That history is unfamiliar to most Americans, but the rest of the

world knows it all too well. They know that when we finally moved

against Saddam, it was not to advance democracy or human rights, but

because it suited our national interests, just as today it suits us

to back a dictator such as Aliyev. They know, because they watch

what we do with the same intensity that you would watch a 600-pound

tiger locked in the same room with you. They watch every move, and

they remember.

 

That explains, I think, why Americans are so often surprised when

other countries express resentment, distrust and even anger at U.S.

policies. We look at ourselves in the mirror and see a decent

citizen of the world, strong but fair and devoted to the cause of

democracy. But increasingly, even our friends look at us in dismay

at our capacity for self-delusion."

 

I pray iraq is ok, but there is going to be worse times ahead.

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George, as I posted elsewhere, what is your point? I really don't think you have to worry about Iraqis being "too trusting" of the U.S. What they have is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. The Americans made it possible, but for American motives. I think most Iraqis know that, but it doesn't take away from the opportunity. I don't know what you're trying to accomplish with your cynicism and negativity. If you hate America so much, what are you doing on this Iraqi board? Talk to us Americans. Tell us how terrible we are. We can take it.

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Hello Woody. Yes, the Mesopotamian is a fav blog as is Iraq The Model. Mohammed today wrote an excellent blog with regard to my doubts and questions. It makes me wonder as well why we don't have a strong radio or tv station broadcasting the positives going on in the country so as to help the people understand more of what is going on all over. And Achillea, I have trouble with Riverbend as she is so negative, but her recipe section is good!  ;) So is the food one here.

My hub and I are newly to NC from Chicago and the local news down here is .. um, different but the football team is better!

Hello member # 100 Betsy!

Yeah your Carolina "Kittys" stuck it to the Cowboys good last week ! :lol: I loved it. ( btw, I'm a Browns fan :( )

 

We also have to take the Iraqi bloggers with a grain of salt not just the media slants that cater to sponsers ect.

 

My point is the average blogger may not be the average Iraqi.

 

That is , to have access to electricity,computers,the internet and be fluent in English and have it all come together may not be the norm that is taken for granted by many posters.

These bloggers are for practical purposes....well off,the fortunate ones

 

Not taking away from their slant but there is a silent majority in every nation.

Case in point is this blogger .

Healing Irag

It seems the grim reaper struck close to home and very personal recently.

Read it if a few of you as of yet missed it.

Continue to read Healing Iraq. We may see a different style evolve or morph in the comming months imo.

 

 

Even Salim Pax mentioned her situation on his blog Where is Raed

 

Both blog entries were for Jan 8th.

I kid you not.

I'd bet a new Iraqi Dinar the president of the United States will read Healing Iraqs

entry.

 

IMO, many unemployed Iraqi's would love to share their opinions with us.

But they can't due to the technical/economic/religeous/linguistic or security dificulties

 

The bloggers,they are the voice I hope reflect the majority over there.

I look forward to new bloggers perspective as well as probable changes in current bloggers.

 

Hey,

even Riverbend has a place, on the net :D

 

=======

 

[ سعر ] مركزي و أنا حديثًا إلى المؤتمر الوطنيّ من شيكاغو و الأخبار المحلّيّة إلى الأسفل هنا .. ام, مختلف لكنّ فريق كرة القدم أفضل ![ / سعر ]

مرحبًا عضو # 100 بتسي !

نعم مبالغ كارولينا ألصقته إلى رعاة البقر الجيّدين الأسبوع الماضي ! :لول : أحببته . ( بالمناسبة, أنا يحمّر المروحة :( )

 

يجب علينا أن نأخذ البلوجيرز العراقيّ بذرّة ملح أيضًا ليس فقط ميل الإعلام التي ترضي سبونسيرز إكت .

 

نقطتي قد لا يكون مستخدم الويب المتوسّط العراقيّ العاديّ .

 

ذلك, ليحصل على المدخل للكهرباء, الكومبيوترات, الإنترنت و طلق بالإنجليزيّة و لدى هو قد لا يكون الكلّ مجيء معًا المعيار الذي يُسَلَّم ببوسترات كثيرة .

هؤلاء بلوجيرز للأغراض العمليّة ....غنيّ, المحظوظون

 

ليس يأخذ بعيدًا عن ميلهم لكنّ هناك غالبيّة محايدة في كلّ دولة .

المثال الواضح هو هذا مستخدم الويب .

[ هتب = يو آر إل :/ / healingiraq.blogspot.com / ] التئام إيراج [ / يو آر إل ]

يبدو عامل الحصاد المزعج أضرب في الصّميم و شخصيّ جدًّا حديثًا .

اقرأه إذا أخطأته قليل من اعتبارًا من حتّى الآن .

استمرّ في قراءة العراق الملتئم . قد نرى أنّ أسلوب مختلف يتطوّر أو مقطع في إيمو أشهر الكوممينج .

 

 

حتّى سليم باكس ذكر وضعها على بلوج ه [ هتب = يو آر إل :/ / حبيب _ raed.blogspot.com / ] أين رائد [ / يو آر إل ]

كانت كلتا مادّتي بلوج للثّامن من جانر .

أمازحك ليس .

قد راهنت دينارًا عراقيًّا جديدًا رئيس الولايات المتّحدة سيقرأ إيراكس الملتئم

المادّة .

 

آي إم أو, كثير العراقيّ العاطل سيحبّ تقاسم آراءهم معنا .

لكنهم يستطيعون ليس بسبب التّقنيّ / اقتصاديّ / ريليجايوس / الديفيكلتيس الأمنيّ أو اللّغويّ

 

البلوجيرز, هم الصّوت آمل يعكس الأغلبيّة هناك .

أتطلّع إلى منظور بلوجيرز جديد وأيضًا التّغييرات المحتملة في البلوجيرز الحاليّ .

 

هيه,

حتّى لدى ريفيربيند مكان, على الشّبكة :دي

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Hi Airedale #50 .. Yeah, I had a difficult time that day, I'm a Panther fan now and my hub is an ardent Cowboy fan. :lol:

 

You are right and I am aware of that, the bloggers' situation that is, as to internet access, speaking english, etc. Don't we wish we COUld hear from that "silent" majority as well? Reading a blog for some time gives you an idea the blogger's position/bias/leaning and then many tell what they do, where they are, etc. I admire their willingness to share with us no matter what their position in life, and eat up all of the history they share with relish. Riverbend is ok she's just to negative for me. I don't believe you can afford to be negative and still end up putting your country back together. A positive can-do attitude is imperative (a good ole 'merican trait).

 

And yes, I did in fact read Healing Iraq's blog this morning and the update. I'm putting that item on "hold" until we find out more information - it does not ring true, but who knows? I'll wait for more info before forming an opinion. The "gang" there emailed that letter to all websites, newspeople, newspapers, etc. so I'm sure Salem Pax had it from them. It is imperative we find out the truth.

 

What do you mean by "probable changes" in current bloggers? That's an odd thing to say. There have been bunches added constantly as new ones join in, I know that. So many now I'm having trouble keeping up with all of them! :(

 

Take care!

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